Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

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Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Gary Wells on Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

I currently reload, shoot, & CLEAN 5 different .45 autos with the same load of R-P nickel cases, WW LPP, 3.5 grs of Alliant Bullseye behind a 180 or 185 gr LSWC, generally a H&G # 130 "button" bullet. Bullseye at that low of a charge is not dirty, it is filthy. Considering going over to VV 310 or VV 320 which I have heard are very clean burning powders. Any recommendations from you pros as to which one and what charge? Counsel please & many thanks in advance.

Gary Wells

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jack H on Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:21 am

Yes Roddy is a real cool guy. 
Hey Len.  I might finally be free of a work enough to make the next Roddy match.  I have been out of regular BE circulation so long because of work, family including my lovely mother at 91, and my sometimes own health issues, I just discovered my Master card has expired.  I am embarrassed.  Oh how time flies.  I have just started a transition mode at work going into retirement.  Should be all done after September or December depending on a contract project I will have to ramrod.  Bids are coming next week.  After the project, I am free!

I'll be using some old Zins ammo just to get rid of it.  I am so out of shape, I'll be lucky to hit the hillside behind the targets.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sat Jun 11, 2016 9:37 am

jmdavis wrote:Some of the HM shooters that I know clean their 45's during the 2700 between CF and 45 matches.  brake clean or WD40 spraying out the guts of the pistols. 
I have also been told that when using softer projectiles brushing the barrel and running some patches will help to keep the pistol accurate on the long line as you transition from SF to the SF stage of the NMC. It only takes a few seconds.

As you know I cleaned between 900s when she shot two guns..
Now that she is shooting a 38 in CF, I don't need too..
The HM you witnessed at the last match, is often chided by me for allowing his gun(s) to get a little too cruddy..
The gunk that builds up under the barrel,  compacts/hardens somewhat and causes the barrel to drag on the slide during cycling...and as David Sams mentioned in the quotes posted by Derek in the Slide vs Frame Mount thread, retarding the slide going into battery is not a desirable symptom.. I don't worry about brushing barrels, because,  like Nascar tires, I change them regularly whether they need it or  not..Smile

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Christopher Miceli on Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:43 am

Jerry Keefer wrote:
Christopher Miceli wrote:I haven't seen any pics.
The top of both slides have been reduced quite a bit. Internally material has been removed. The 52 has slots cut into the slide in addition to other lightening cuts. Taking as much off the rear as possible, because that is what is hanging back out over the frame and putting the most pressure  on the shooter when the slide stops abruptly against the frame..We videoed rapid fire, and the wrist and forearm are absorbing that shock, and it's quite visible as the wrist is twisted by the slide colliding with the frame..Add the optics to it and the mass, and force  is increased..That's where the injuries are coming from..  Please excuse the grease and dirt.. That 52 is fresh from a match..


Jerry,

Any reason for using a 52-2 vs a Keefer built 1911 38 special?

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jerry Keefer on Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:15 pm

Both are problematic.. The 52-2 has  less feeding issues IMO..but has a superior trigger design.. Jon has a 1911 38spl that is a great shooter.. I think the key lies in the crew chief.. Both require fast twist barrels.. The 52 suffers from poor bushing system an 18.75 twist barrel with very poor  lock up..
The 52 barrel was not thought out at all by the factory.. The bullet is blamed for the accuracy issue, when in fact it is the gun/barrel design..

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by 243winxb on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:24 pm

"3500 brand new unprimed RP "   Better than range brass of all different headstamps.  IMO.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by BEA on Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:39 pm

The energetic components in commercial gunpowder are either solely nitrocellulose (single base powder) or nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin (double base powder) Bullseye is a high energy double based powder in that it has 40% NG. Alliant makes no powder with a higher % of NG.  The advantage of the presence of NG is that it is hydrophobic, which means that it resist moisture (humidity).  It does not make the powder waterproof. The higher the % of NG, the more resistant to moisture the powder is. The disadvantage is that NG is responsible for leaving some residue.  So, herein lies the advantage/disadvantage of Bullseye.  The advantage aspect is measured in performance which is important.  The disadvantage is a matter of convenience. The high NG content can make it more stable than a powder such as VV320 or Clays, which are are either single base (no NG) or a very low (5% or less).  Typically, these low NG content powders are not very temperature stable. The upside to the low NG % is they are cleaner. The choice is yours.  The 45 auto operates at a pretty low pressure which also contributes to extra reside.  The higher the pressure, the more efficient the burn.  Most 45 auto target loads produce pressures in the area of 15,000 to 16,000 psi, which is pretty low.  Compare this to a 9mm which produces pressures in area of 30,000 psi.  This is one reason the 9mm is cleaner.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Colt711 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:58 am

I have had a couple of lots of BE which were quite underpowered. 1 especially required an increase of .35 grains to equal my long used load of 4.15 and a Quality Cast 160. It was really dirty!

+1 on the nickel cases.

Ron Habegger

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by BEA on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:01 pm

The pressure on that load must be very low, and although the recoil must be very nice, I would be surprised if it did not leave lots of residue.  But in exchange for low recoil during RF, residue is a good trade off, in my opinion.  In addition, I cannot recall ever having a malfunction in any of my 45's that I thought was due to residue.  It is impossible to make 2 lots of powder that are identical in terms of pressure and velocity.  When you are dealing with a load too close to the edge, either in terms of being too light or too heavy, very little change has to occur in one direction for problems to be on display.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by jmdavis on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:06 pm

Residue is what patches and solvent (or kroil) are for. My current short line load is 3.8BE with a 185 zero. It functions and shoots pretty good at 25 (for my level). In the Ransom Rest at 50 yards it was right at 2 inches for a 10 shot group. But I only fired 2 ten shot groups.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:57 pm

When I shoot my 3.3 gr shortline load my arm is covered with the stuff. I don't care, the results on the target are well worth it! I did find I needed to tighten the crimp to improve the burn/lessen residue.
Jon

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Colt711 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 5:53 pm

Jon,
Have you lightened the slide or done anything else some what unusual to run the 3.3 load you reference?

I experimented w/ something like it a few yrs ago due to severely worn out  shoulders. I ended uo just shooting the .38.

As the shoulders worsen I have considered a .32. Have you ever heard of a 1911 converted to the .32? My thought was start with the Gold Cup since it is a blowback. blowback. Expensive and hard to find though.

Ron

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:53 pm

Believe it or not its my Longslide 45 I built. Cycles 3.3 with UD or Micro. I use a very small base attached to rear of slide. I just shot 3.3 with two 5" 45's I just built with perfect cycling. They are not lightened. I've gone lower but like the recoil impulse of the 3.3 for now. After Perry I will be experimenting with lower charges for the short line.
Jon

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by jglenn21 on Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:32 pm

Jesss I thought my 3.5 load for the short line was light... I do run a 9 lb spring in it ... nothing fancy on the slide or mounts.. guess I can see where with a bit of work 3.3 would work

there is something to be said for just having the empty cases lay  on the bench..

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Gary Wells on Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:41 pm

Many thanks for all of the great info,
I bumped my charge weight to 3.65.
I'll try that for a while.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by BEA on Sun Jun 19, 2016 12:50 am

Just an opinion here...but if you are paying attention to half tenths of a grain "3.65", then you are getting bogged down in details that will never pay off in any way, but by all means, make yourself happy.  Personally, I typically do not make moves in powder charge in less than .2 increments in the 45 auto.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Colt711 on Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:48 pm

I always clean any of my CF pistols before using them in a match so a cleaner powder wouldn't mean that much.

Cleaning before a match is an opportunity for an examination of a gun also.

Ron Habegger

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Gary Wells on Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:44 pm

BEA wrote:Just an opinion here...but if you are paying attention to half tenths of a grain "3.65", then you are getting bogged down in details that will never pay off in any way, but by all means, make yourself happy.  Personally, I typically do not make moves in powder charge in less than .2 increments in the 45 auto.
No sir, I am anal & OTD, but not to that extent. I adjust by hex flat turns on the powder adjustment knob, generally 1 or 1.5 turns at a time, & not by weight. I do like to know where I am at in life in reference to powder charge actual weight. My Dillon scales are haunted & have been for years, so I throw 10 X, weight on scales, & divide by 10, & use that as a powder charge actual weight My Dillon scales set at "0" always read about .01+ high consistently. However, they read dead "nuts" at 365 grs as verified against verified scale weights. .

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by rich.tullo on Tue Jul 12, 2016 1:35 pm

Anyone ever try VV320 for Bullseye. I have two pounds and would like to either trade it (in NJ only to ......Legal....bla bla bla) or use it.

I think is should shoot like cleaner w231 which was exceptional with ZERO 185s hpswc and hp.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by Jack H on Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:54 pm

320 is excellent real Hardball powder

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by DavidR on Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:27 pm

it loads like WST, 4.2 for a 185 or 200 lswc and 4.8 for a 185 fmj-hp like zero or nosler.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by john bickar on Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:43 pm

Dave Wilson swears by VV N320 for .32 S&W.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by fc60 on Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:33 am

Dave Wilson swears by VV N320 for .32 S&W.

Greetings All,

Yes, I have used VV N320 in the past. Doc Young did also.

Bear in mind that there is no published data for reloading the 32 WadCutter.

You must use a chronograph to develop loads for non published data. I aim for a velocity of 730FPS.

Currently, I have a four pound keg of Bullseye, Lot #669, 1994 vintage, that shoots the H&N 100 grain bullet very well at 50 yards. Very well means "X-Ring".

In closing, "recipe" loads may not work for you. You NEED to test your components for best results.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

Post by noylj on Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:42 pm

Unless the soot affects shooting, I don't worry about it.
I shot the same gun, back in 70s to 80s, using 6gn Unique for IPSC and 5.0 gn for PPC and Bullseye and cleaned my gun about once a year. Never lost accuracy, never faltered, and never leaded.
Just saying that for an accuracy game, nothing much counts except accuracy.
In your case, would you clean the gun less often if you used another powder?
Finally, I can load Bullseye and 231/HP38 over the entire range of safe charge weights with any weight bullet and have very accurate loads. Powders like N310, Clays, Nitro 100, and TiteGroup are accurate, if accurate at all, over very narrow charge weight ranges. I prefer a powder that is "inherently" accurate, such as Bullseye, Red Dot, and 231/HP38.

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Re: Dirty Bullseye against supposedly clean burning VV310/VV320?

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