Need Advice To Reach Master

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Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by dsandula on 6/26/2016, 9:37 am

I'm shooting a 279 average in 22 for the outdoor season here in Michigan.

I'm looking for any advice that will get me to the next level.

I can consistently hold 98 in timed and rapid.  So it's the long line where I'm really needing help.


Last edited by dsandula on 6/26/2016, 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Repair)

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Jon Eulette on 6/26/2016, 11:04 am

Understanding what each fundamental is and working on each one independently is crucial to climbing the classification ladder. Break each one down in training. Make a shot plan that is performance oriented. Now throw scores out the window Wink
To many shooters get wrapped up in their scores and that's what limits them from getting better. When focusing on scores we're not focusing on performance. By focusing on performance it now becomes one shot at a time; which is one 10 at a time which leads to shooting mostly 10's. You will expect to shoot a 10! When focusing on scores we have a tendency to have a comfort zone. Problem with that is you just shot nine 10's on SF and get uncomfortable on last shot and send it deep into the 6 ring. By using performance oriented shooting you've been training yourself to think about shot execution instead of score. I trt and think about my shot placement/group. By shooting good groups we aren't focusing on scores, we're thinking in terms of keeping all the shots in the group. We're using performance to get there, not scores!
So work on shot execution and the scores automatically come that get you into the master classification. It's really one shot at a time whether SF or timed & rapid. It's learning how to focus on each shot as breaking them.
Another factor is you have to act like a master.....mentally! Can't be talking about bad shots and doing marksman things! Remember you can't soar with eagles when you hang out with turkeys. It's true! Learn to block out or walk away from the negative shooters. Let them ruin their own performance but not yours Smile
Jon
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by john bickar on 6/26/2016, 11:55 am

The Marine Corps Pistol Team Workbook.

Which exercise are you stuck on?
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by C.Perkins on 6/26/2016, 3:57 pm

Jon is spot on; it is a mind set.

For me making a move half way across the country, have not shot an outdoor 2700 in a year and a half until about 3 weeks ago.

I will keep this little story short as possible.
Going into the first 10 shot string of CF with my M52.

During the first shot attempt at the long line I held too long and lowered the pistol to start all over in the process.(if something is not right, put the gun down).

The second attempt at the first shot ended with sending it off but I called the shot low knowing I dropped my head.
Scoped it, it was a perfect 7 straight down and a touch to the left.
I turned that 7 (bad shot to some), into a good shot to me.
Reason is that I called it and knew what I did wrong which enforces a positive.

Set up for the second shot with positive thoughts of proper posture and process and sent it down range.
Shot looked and felt good, scoped it; X

Continued 2 more shots with out scoping, then reload (I install another magazine of 5 rounds after 4 shots; hot reload; Steve Reiter taught me this; so it is what I do).

Next round sent off and scoped; looks like I have a group.

Send the rest down range with out scoping.

Finish and start loading up the magazines for the next string.
Scoped target and giggled to myself.

Target scored 97-7x

Positive reinforcement of the 1st shot called, not scoping every shot thereafter keeps the gremlins out of your head.
Just remember the gremlins will always try to get in but just turn them around to your advantage.

Have the mind set to turn anything others see as negatives into what you see as a positive will go a long way to making master or beyond.
I am going to do my best to get back up to master level shooting after my long time off.
It will take work, positive mind set and able to call your shots.

Enough of my rambling;
Clarence
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by dsandula on 6/27/2016, 5:06 am

Great advice guys.  John Bickar, I printed the Marine Corps workbook along with a bunch of their "no bullseye" targets and will likely use them following Jon Eulette's advice in focusing on fundamentals and not scores.  (Truth be told . . . the exercises from that book brought me to a 98 average in timed and rapid . . . and a couple of 100's under match pressure.)  Jon Eulette's tutelage, along with switching to a High Standard Victor / Ultradot 30MM have brought me this far in 22.

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by DavidR on 6/27/2016, 10:09 am

So are you only aspiring to reach master shooting the 22?
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by dsandula on 6/28/2016, 5:23 am

It can be done!  I shot my first 285 in practice last night with 95 in SF, TF & RF.  (Likely could have done better had I been shooting CCI Standard Velocity.  I was shooting Remington crap ammo for practice . . . concentrating on technique and the little red dot trying not to think about score.)  The 3 keys for me are trigger control, trigger control and trigger control.  I'll work to maintain and improve on 22 and begin again with my 38 when my 1911 slide and new mount come back from John Chernick of BME Scope Mounts in a week or two.

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by davekp on 6/28/2016, 7:28 am

I did a lot of dry fire- about 200 per day for a good 2 years. It was not too much.

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Dave C. on 6/28/2016, 8:14 am

See the X.
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Orpanaut on 7/20/2016, 1:06 am

Dave C. wrote:See the X.
Are you talking about literally seeing the letter "X" that's printed in the center of the target?  I can't do that at 50 yards without a spotting scope.  Or are you talking about visualizing the result of a perfectly executed shot plan?

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by dronning on 7/20/2016, 5:15 am

Orpanaut wrote:
Dave C. wrote:See the X.
Are you talking about literally seeing the letter "X" that's printed in the center of the target?  I can't do that at 50 yards without a spotting scope.  Or are you talking about visualizing the result of a perfectly executed shot plan?

It's both a "Mental State" and visually seeing the X.  I was once told "If you focus intensely enough the X will reveal itself to you even at 50 yards".  There is a lot of noise though, like that damn red dot darting around the target distracting you! Laughing

- Dave
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by CR10X on 7/24/2016, 8:36 am

I was watching this thread and hoping it would evolve a little more.  The original poster posed a great question.  I've watched many shooters reach this point and then struggle for years, while others work their way though to Master and High Master.

Beginning shooters have a lot of things to work on just getting shots on the target and then getting a group and then getting closer to the center.  Shooting 98's on the short line is a great place to start from to get to Master.  

As the poster said, the issue with most shooters at this point is generally 50 yd shooting (and consistently scoring well at 50 yards).  Now remember, the group size will generally be 4 times times (not twice) the size at 25 yards for most shooters.  That's because the shooting errors are angular, not positional.  Therefore the solution is removing angular issues, not generally holding issues.   

So, for shooting at 50 yards we must work on holding the pistol "parallel" or more aligned with the line of sight and reduce the actions that twist or cause the pistol to angle off the intended alignment.  Wobble is ok and inevitable, pushing the muzzle right, left, up or down must be identified and overcome. 

So at this point in progress, I generally suggest going back to the basics, but with the knowledge the shooter has gained to this point.  Break the shot down into the simple parts and steps and work on those again from the new level and perspective. 

Train on alignment, that is holding the pistol perfectly parallel while dryfiring.  
Train on trigger process, watch the sight and dot and make sure the trigger finger is not moving the dot or sights outside the normal wobble.
Train on grip, good, consistent pressure throughout the shot, don't let that trigger finger make the other fingers move or increase pressure.
Find the specific items to help and train on each of those individually.

Lastly, at this point I generally mention the shooter should not become enamored with new gadgets, guns, loads or any other extraneous items.  Yes, we might find some better things along the way, and that's ok.   But the issues are generally with the shooter at this point.  

Anyway, hope this helps.  Please feel free to post me if you have any specific questions.

Respectfully,

Cecil

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by dronning on 7/24/2016, 10:16 am

Cecil very good write up.

At SAFS in 2013 our instructor drove this point home when he said that if you keep the gun, wrist arm, aligned during the trigger pull there is no way you could miss the black at 50 yards.  He then proceeded to take his hat off and had the first shooter point and hold in the center of his hat to make his point.  He said "I have a big head but it's not bigger than the 50 yard black, and look how small your wobble is inside that hat!  You keep everything aligned and as your wobble begins to settle start the trigger pull without disrupting alignment and you will shoot a 9 or better".

He finished up with " Don't worry about the 10 ring the 10's will come.  It's that easy no need to make it harder than it is".

- Dave
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Skid on 7/27/2016, 8:52 am

So, for shooting at 50 yards we must work on holding the pistol "parallel" or more aligned with the line of sight and reduce the actions that twist or cause the pistol to angle off the intended alignment.  Wobble is ok and inevitable, pushing the muzzle right, left, up or down must be identified and overcome.

  Well this would explain some of the groups I get and thanks for bringing this up Cecil I'm working on it.

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Jack H on 7/27/2016, 11:56 am

It's all right here
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/chapter2.htm
Been there for years.

1. Angular Shift Error: If the shooter does not observe correct aiming (maintaining the top surface of the centered front sight on a level with the top of the rear sight and equal light space on each side of the front sight) there will be few accurate shots. Most often, he locates the front sight in a different position In the rear notch. This accounts for a greater dispersion of shots on the target, since the bullets will deviate In the direction In which the front sight is positioned In the notch. (Figure 2-2). This aiming error is known as angular shift error.


Figure 2-2. Displacement of the Bullet When There Is Angular Shift Error in the Alignment of the Front Sight.


2. Parallel Shift Error: If the hold (arc of movement) is deviating In near parallel error from the center of the aiming area, the shooter should know that these deflections will not lower the score to the extent of angular shift error. Therefore, sight alignment is the most critical of the two. Thus, the accuracy of a shot depends mainly upon the shooter's ability to consistently maintain correct sight alignment. The main effort should be toward keeping your sights aligned, Holding the pistol perfectly still is desirable but It is not mandatory.



Figure 2-3, Displacement of the Bullet When The Pistol is Shifted: (a) Parallel, (b) Angular



Figure 2-4a, Impossible! The Human Eye Cannot Focus On A Close-UP Object and A Distant Object Simultaneously.
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by DavidR on 7/27/2016, 1:20 pm

Here is a question ive been thinking about. Dot or Target? many opinions as to which we should be focusing on using a red dot. I shoot with prescription glasses and seem to switch from target to dot and back. I can see the 50 yard bull very clear and crisp, can even if the light is right see bullet holes as bullet enters, Without my prescription glasses the bull is still round just not hyper focus. Would it be better to continue like I am or just use standard shooting glasses and concentrate on the dot only ?
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by mspingeld on 7/27/2016, 2:23 pm

Zins says target. Ed Hall says look at the dot to perfect the trigger but then look at the target.

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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/27/2016, 2:32 pm

Majority of top level shooters I know look at dot. Align dot in center of scope tube. Dot is like front sight and tube is like rear sight. Accept movement and squeeze trigger.
Jon
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by john bickar on 7/27/2016, 4:22 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Align dot in center of scope tube. Dot is like front sight and tube is like rear sight. Accept movement and squeeze trigger.

+1

I have been working this mental approach hard lately, with good results. I have to remember to do it, though. That's what my journal is for.

A short memory is a blessing and a curse in shooting Laughing
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by john bickar on 7/27/2016, 4:24 pm

DavidR wrote:Dot or Target? many opinions as to which we should be focusing on using a red dot.

Conventional (and expert High Master) wisdom is to pick one and stick with it, and I concur.

DavidR wrote:I ... seem to switch from target to dot and back.

This is the opposite of that Smile
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Re: Need Advice To Reach Master

Post by Wile E Coyote on 7/27/2016, 5:25 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Align dot in center of scope tube. Dot is like front sight and tube is like rear sight. Accept movement and squeeze trigger.
Jon

+∞
I was told this by a HM at a BE seminar, and my personal best score shot up (no pun intended) almost 20 points.

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