An oil thread

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An oil thread

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:19 am

I never expected to be starting an oil thread, here or anywhere else. But I have a problem. 

My 45's have been lubed exclusively with Dillon Snake Oil for years. I ran out a couple of weeks ago and when I was looking to order more this morning, I discovered that it is no longer listed by Dillon. So...

I need a replacement for barrel, slide rail and general use on the 45. What are people using? Last week I tried two different things with vastly different results. 

The night before the State match, I used some Tetraglide on the slide rails and bushing, that was the worst mistake I had ever made. I had two double alibis during the centerfire match in addition to problems in every stage. During the break between CF and 45, I took the gun apart, cleaned the grease using kroil as a solvent and then re-oiled everything with hoppes oil out of the needle tube. It worked fine for the rest of the match. 

So I am looking for suggestions to use specifically for my 1911 bullseye guns. What say ye all?


Mike

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jglenn21 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:53 am

Find some of the original Bob Marvel oil 

Really nice stuff

I believe it is Machine gun oil from the old days... you will be happy with it.. It flat works



today it is called MFR-7..


https://progoldmfr.com/firearms-store/index.php?route=product/product&path=37&product_id=61


you can still find the original in the Marvel bottle.

Don't know how much of the original they still have here.

http://www.topgunsupply.com/bob-marvels-custom-gun-oil-4oz-15010.html


BTW everyone has a favorite oil like everyone has a ( fill in the blank)

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Re: An oil thread

Post by dronning on Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:48 am

I have been using TW25B for fire control parts, including pins, Lubriplate SFL-0, on the slide and barrel (because it's cheaper).

Whenever an "Oil Thread" pops up I point them to this article about gun lubrication:  Grant Cunningham - Lubrication 101, it's a bit of a read but well worth it.  It tells you what type of oil/grease to put where.

You shouldn't use the same oil/grease on all parts of your gun.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:20 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:01 am

jglenn21 wrote:
you can still find the original in the Marvel bottle.

Don't know how much of the original they still have here.

http://www.topgunsupply.com/bob-marvels-custom-gun-oil-4oz-15010.html

They had 3 bottles. Soon, though I will have them. Thanks for the link to Topgun. I still may miss "Snake Oil," but I'm sure I will get over it.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by BE Mike on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:17 am

FP-10 works great. I saw a demo of it at Camp Perry years ago. It was very impressive. I know a few gunsmiths who recommend it. Having said that, there are a number of great oils out there that will serve the purpose. Find one that makes you happy.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by james r chapman on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:20 am

Tetraguide works well in break open shotgun s, sucks big time on 1911 slides ,lol. Actually allows it down.


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Re: An oil thread

Post by SW-52 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 10:45 am

i use hoppes 9,brake free,outers and ewl.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by john bickar on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:14 am

I thought TetraGlide was the new four-wheeled Harley Davidson.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jglenn21 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:33 am

Lubriplate SFL does work extremely well on slides.. I use it today in place of TW25.. it is an aluminum based grease where TW25 is lithium based..

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Re: An oil thread

Post by DavidR on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:39 am

ive tried it all on my mike Curtis 1911, its so tight that you know right off if the oil will work, the best ive found is Gunslick Pro Ultra lube, it really makes things move, its clear, doesn't separate on the gun or in the bottle. grease of any kind is too thick for this gun. If you try this I know it will work for you.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:51 am

David, 

ironically this is also a Curtis Custom that I noticed the problem first with. It has been lubed with Snake oil since 1998. But I still had issues with the Ball gun and tetra glide.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Dr.Don on Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:50 pm

I have for many years used something similar to Ed's Red which I mix up myself.  Major components are Marvel Oil (the red stuff you can still buy at the auto store) and Breakfree with a touch of Hoppes #9 and a dab of STP.  Has always worked well so I haven't gone looking for too many other lubes. Have never had it separate.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by DavidR on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:10 pm

jmdavis wrote:David, 

ironically this is also a Curtis Custom that I noticed the problem first with. It has been lubed with Snake oil since 1998. But I still had issues with the Ball gun and tetra glide.
terta is the worst stuff ever made, it will separate in a gun in under 24 hours leaving grease and liquid not what you want.
recently after having two alibis from the frame/slide binding and not fully going into battery from bad oil, ( I had to oil it after every 5 shot string to finish the match)  I went on a oil crusade, bought everything I could find, lucas, clp,lp, fp10,eds red, 5-20 mobil1, Castrol magnatec w/moly,  miltec, hoppes, tried the tw25b, champions choice, military heavy artillery lube (awesome stuff on internals like hammer/sear ) the gunslick ultra beat every other one hands down. it is the best ive found for my Curtis. Since I started using it not only does the gun move like butter I had to up my recoil spring and even lightened my short line load it moves so much easier.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:55 pm

DrDon,
Would you post your recipe for your home made lube?

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 12:57 pm

As part of my day job, I've done quite a bit of testing of oils and greases. Anyone interested in reading some data?

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jmdavis on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:00 pm

igolfat8 wrote:As part of my day job, I've done quite a bit of testing of oils and greases. Anyone interested in reading some data?

I like data, ALOT.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by gweber on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:12 pm

I made some "red oil" this year and that seems to work good. I used: 2 quarts ATF, 1 quart 10W-30 Mobil1 full synthetic, and 1 pint STP. Keeps the 1911 wet and is noticeably cleaner when I tear it apart for cleanings.

I actually like this better than FP-10 that I was using before. The big plus is that you won't need oil for a long time once you make a batch

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Jack H on Wed Jun 29, 2016 1:44 pm

I have on the shelf FP10, Bob Marvel oil, tetra something, G96, corrosion x, remoil, gunslick, militek, action lube, wilson grease in a syringe, ezox, and more I don't remember.  They all work.

edit to add
FP10 is my usual used oil.  Although I do moly the sear on some guns.


Last edited by Jack H on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:46 pm

It’s seemingly endless the number of threads we see on the internet discussing which oil or grease is best for my particular gun. I’ll admit that I am somewhat of an oil and grease closet junkie too so this thread caught my attention.
 
A bit of background on myself:  I’m a mechanical engineer and manage a Maintenance Reliability Group at a Fortune 100 US based worldwide corporation. I also oversee the activities of a Ferrography Laboratory. We monitor hundreds of hydraulic oil and large gearbox reservoirs and analyze oil samples to assess the condition of industrial machines and their lubricating systems. Oil is the lifeblood of the machine much the same as your oil is to your automobile’s engine. Our Tribologists monitor the viscosity, density and wear particulates in the oil. Slides are made and the oil wear particles are analyzed under a 100X microscope to identify possible machine failure modes months before a failure occurs. This gives us a chance to proactively order parts and schedule repairs without disrupting production schedules.
 
20 Years ago, we changed the oil on a calendar basis whether the oil needed it or not just because it was “time to change the oil”. Now we change the oil only when the oil tells us too. Many of our oils are 10-15 years old and are still protecting machines as they were engineered to do. This is a huge cost savings since many of the machines utilize >1000 gallons of oil in each reservoir.
 
We just happen to have a Falex Film Strength Testing Machine in our lab which performs a basic Timken OK load test. This test uses a spinning bearing race, submerged in an oil bath while a stationary bearing roller is leveraged against the race until one can either hear an audible metallic grinding noise, indicating the oil film has broken through resulting in metal to metal contact, or the machine can also be ran to the point of load welding where the load is so heavy the fixed roller will stall out the spinning race. At that point amperage is monitored and recorded as part of the test.
 
Since we are discussing which lubricants are best suited for hand guns this particular test method isn’t really applicable since we don’t run or guns in a submerged bath of oil, do we? Therefore, I modified the test to the following procedure:
 
1st Test:
A new bearing (position) is used for each run.
The race is polished with 220 sand paper between each run.
Both the bearing and race are cleaned with Brake Clean between runs.
A cue tip is dipped in the test oil and held against the spinning race before the bearing makes contact.
A stop watch timer is used.
After the bearings make contact the cue tip is held on the spinning race for an additional 5 seconds then removed.
Initially no weight is applied to the leverage bar.
When the bearing makes contact with the spinning race the timer is started for the duration of the test.
When the oil film breaks through you hear an audible metal to metal grinding noise.
At that point the timer is stopped and the time recorded.
If the oil film did not break through, the race was allowed to spin for 60 seconds and the test was stopped.
A total of 50 oils and greases have been tested to date.
 
2nd Test:
If the oil exceeded the 60 second test those oils were used for a 2nd test.
The bearing and race were cleaned per the steps above.
At the 5 second mark weight was added to the leverage bar.
When the film broke through the amount of weight was recorded.
 
The results were ranked by the amount of weight the oil film withstood before audible failure.
 
The Falex machine gives us a metric of the oil or grease’s film strength. Film strength is the property of a lubricant to keep two surfaces separated by a thin boundary layer of oil. As long as the film layer never breaks down, then there will theoretically never be surface to surface contact or physical wear. If you can visually see or measure wear on your rails, slides, pins, etc… then it’s likely you need a lubricant with higher film strength to prevent contact wear of those parts.
  
I am sure someone has calculated the forces and loads on gun wear surfaces but I have never read such a report. Many of us have guns that have 50K, 100K or more rounds through them and they are still running strong or perhaps not but are considerably looser? The condition of your gun’s wear surfaces is largely dependent on the film strength of the lubricant you chose to use.
 
 One interesting result surprised me was that the greases I tested were the lowest performers of this particular test procedure.  The best performing grease only lasted 18 seconds, with zero load before the film strength failed. The worst performer only lasted 7 seconds before it failed. Granted this is not the ideal test for grease as either an ASTM D-2596 Load Wear Index or D-2266 Shell Four Ball Wear test would have been better suited for testing grease. None the less it does show us that perhaps our guns don’t need as much protection as we think they do, if the grease we are currently using is preventing any obvious visual wear on the rails and slides.
 
 Just because we dribble some oil on a few parts or slather other parts with grease doesn’t mean life is good and we forget about it. During cleaning we should closely visually inspect those moving and mating surfaces for any obvious signs of wear, scratching, galling marks, etc… If we don’t see any or can’t measure wear then perhaps your brand of oil or grease is adequate. However, if we see visual wear or worse yet we can measure wear then it’s obvious that the lubricants we are using are simply not protecting our favorite firearm like we had hoped they would and it may very well be a time for change.
 
Enough babble, what’s the top performer in the test you ask? The top performing “gun” oil is Shooter’s Choice  FP-10. It’s a pretty impressive product. Not only did it pass the 60 second test and it withstood all the weight (3,940 grams) added to the leverage arm without failure.  It was the only oil that withstood all of the weight AND we could shut off the machine and start it up from a cold start repeatedly and the film still did not break through. I am not sure how they have managed to do it but it’s a pretty amazing lubricant IMO.
 
Do you need this much protection? I really dunno? I’ve used Brian Enos’ Slide Glide Lite for many years and it’s only 8 second grease with no load yet it didn’t cause any wear to my guns. This leads me to believe that we don’t need as much protection as we think we do or my Glock’s would have failed 75,000 rounds ago Wink 

Without further babbling, here are some recent test data I compiled using the Falex film strength testing machine with the modified procedure above:

Updated test data can now be viewed on PAGE 3 of this thread.


Last edited by igolfat8 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:16 am; edited 6 times in total

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Re: An oil thread

Post by james r chapman on Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:55 pm

Wow.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jmdavis on Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:57 pm

Thanks for the data. I guess that switching from grease to Hoppes#9 oil was an even better idea than it seemed at first.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by james r chapman on Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:59 pm

WD-40 is missing,.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by LenV on Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:46 pm

Speaking of sticking. Admin should make this a sticky. Great info. Is one of these TW25 with a different name ?

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:46 pm

No, TW25 is not included because I didn't have any. If you don't see a lube listed that you are interested in you are welcome to mail me a sample and I will test it and add it to the list. I need about a teaspoon. You can double bag it in a ziplock and mail it to me. Drop me a PM and I will give you my mailing address.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Dr.Don on Wed Jun 29, 2016 6:08 pm

igolfat8,

Clearly you are way ahead of most of us on lubrication matters.  You asked about my homemade formula.  I've gotten sloppy with the porportions over time, but this will be close:
45% Marvel Mystery Oil
45% Break Free CLP
5% STP
5% Hoppes #9 bore solvent, not gun oil

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Re: An oil thread

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