An oil thread

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An oil thread

Post by jmdavis on Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:19 am

First topic message reminder :

I never expected to be starting an oil thread, here or anywhere else. But I have a problem. 

My 45's have been lubed exclusively with Dillon Snake Oil for years. I ran out a couple of weeks ago and when I was looking to order more this morning, I discovered that it is no longer listed by Dillon. So...

I need a replacement for barrel, slide rail and general use on the 45. What are people using? Last week I tried two different things with vastly different results. 

The night before the State match, I used some Tetraglide on the slide rails and bushing, that was the worst mistake I had ever made. I had two double alibis during the centerfire match in addition to problems in every stage. During the break between CF and 45, I took the gun apart, cleaned the grease using kroil as a solvent and then re-oiled everything with hoppes oil out of the needle tube. It worked fine for the rest of the match. 

So I am looking for suggestions to use specifically for my 1911 bullseye guns. What say ye all?


Mike

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Re: An oil thread

Post by AllAces on Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:45 am

SSgtG wrote:I've used Marvels Mystery Oil in my 1911s for years now. Here in Iowa it can be over 100 degrees in the summer shooting season and well below zero during winter indoor season. It's been the only oil that has never given me issues. I shoot the gun fairly wet and it's always easy to clean. BTW, I use Gunzilla as my go to cleaner/protector. It is also a lubricant as well. However, it's largely unscented so there is a bottle of Hoppes on the bench purely for nostalgia reasons.
I too use Gunzilla after receiving a free bottle following the Perry match around 2013.  It is a great cleaner and lubes well during cold weather.  I use Hoppes #9 exclusively for barrel cleaning.  I keep a quart mason jar full of #9 and soak my 1911 and M52 barrels overnight.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Al on Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:14 am

Mike,
do a search for Red Oil. It's a mix of Mobile 1, ATF III, STP and Hoppes #9.

I mixed up a couple gallons 16 years ago and used it on my 22's, 1911's and lots of other stuff for well over 200,000 rounds.  It coats well and sticks.  Still have a little less than a gallon left, and I've given away at least a quart or so of samples. It's worked well in temps from the 40's to mid 90's. 

If you're going to be at perry, look me up & I'll give you a sample to try before going & mixing up a lifetime+ supply. just let me know so I bring one along.  You can examine my old wad gun, that I've got over 65,000 rds through, to check out the long term results. 
Allen


here's a link to the mix.  I substituted the Mobile 1 for the 10 or 30wt motor oil:
http://www.firearmsnews.com/guns/handguns/gunlube-for-the-masses-red-oil/

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Re: An oil thread

Post by LenV on Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:08 pm

I don't have a favorite oil. On Mondays I use........


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Re: An oil thread

Post by 10sandxs on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:11 pm

Igolfat8, thanks for the data, it is really apprecoated. I see a number of commonly used and recommended oils on this list. Can you advise at what load (if any) the FMO-350AW suppored during the test?

Thanks much

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Skid on Sun Jul 10, 2016 1:22 pm

That's funny OldMaster66

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:25 pm

10andxs,

It passed the 60+ second 1st test and held 218 grams in test 2. Here you go:


Lubri-Kit.comFMO-350 AW Gun Oil60+218

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Re: An oil thread

Post by 10sandxs on Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:27 pm

Thanks much.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:11 pm

I've updated my post on page one with new test data. I've also added a new corrosion test column on the far right. I took quarter sized round bare steel slugs and glued them to plastic corroplast (plastic corrugated cardboard). Then I coated the bare steel with the oils and greases I've tested then I wire tired the sheet vertically to a fence and let the elements, here in Ohio, do its thing. The rain washed most of the oils off but did not phase any of the greases. I looked at the samples each day and at the first sign of rust I recorded how many days the slug withstood the elements before rust first appeared and that is what you see in the far right column. If there is a 7 in the column then that oil prevented the slug from rusting for 7 days.

If no number appears in the corrosion column then no rust has shown up yet. BUT, not all of the samples were put outside at the same date so don't think because a number isn't in the box that its the best at corrosion protection.

Greases have not done well as a whole but two have stood out as clear winners in the Falex test: 1) Super Lube and 2) TW-25 (and a special thanks to a forum member who mailed a small sample of TW25 for me to test). Another thanks to a forum member who sent a sample of Mobil Jet oil to test as well.

Three products have won the award for absolute WORST at corrosion protection: 1) LPS-1, 2) ProGold Pro-Link and 3) Shooter's Choice FP-10. The 3rd one was disappointing to me because I have been using FP-10 for quite some time. So I called Shooter's Choice and ask them why their product performed so poorly in corrosion protection and they said it was formulated to be a great lubricant but it had poor water wash off characteristics. They said if you wanted the utmost corrosion protection then apply their corrosion protection product. This seems counter intuitive to me. Why wouldn't you design your lubricant to be a corrosion inhibitor too?

Another discovery was that the surface rusting of FP-10 and Pro_Gold are almost visually identical. I'm not saying they are the same product but I have observed that the rust formation and the amount of rust formation are VERY VERY similar on both products. I think I also read in this thread that ProGold also made the Machine Gunner Oil which is supposedly the same or very similar too Bob Marvel's oil. If so, it may be a fine product to lubricate moving parts BUT these products fail at protecting bare carbon steel from corrosion.

Another product that surprised me was Marvel Mystery Oil or MMO. The entire surface of the slug is covered with a light brown rust. Its just not a spot of rust here and there. Its almost like its stained brown with a dye. Strange???

Perhaps I want my cake and want to eat it too? Is it too much to ask for a lubricant that protects from corrosion AND prevents metal to metal contact or wear? Granted I doubt that any of us leave our guns laying out in the elements like I have subjected my test samples to. But its likely that we could forget about a gun under a bed or in the back of a safe for a couple years isn't it? I would be sick if I got it out only to find that its covered in rust Crying or Very sad  

I still have a lot more data to analyze but I am learning some valuable information along the way.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Aug 05, 2016 12:46 pm

Wow, thanks. I've been using FP-10 for years and I've had some bare metal rust several different times over the years during pistol builds. Never would've guessed that it could rust.
Jon

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:23 pm

Jon,
I had told you about Eezox as being touted as a good corrosion inhibitor. Well after this testing I may have to eat a big bowl of crow because it did not fare as well as I had hoped. It is a good product to keep blued surfaces from finger printing but I wouldn't leave them outside in the elements for over 7 days though.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jglenn21 on Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:31 pm

not sure I'd throw Bob Marvels oil(which is firearms specific ) in the same arena as a chain lube from Pro Gold..

Bob's oil does have corrosion inhibitors(or at least his original oil did).. not sure I'd ever use a Chain wax./grease/oil on a firearm.


one thing I've learned over my life dealing with oils or greases is use the one specific to your needs.. one product will never be the best of everything..if I'm storing a firearm I do not use the same oil or grease I use for function.

not sure why Eezox preformed so poorly in your test.. it has always been near the top of any rust test I've seen  on firearms oils.


Last edited by jglenn21 on Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Fri Aug 05, 2016 1:56 pm

jglenn21 wrote:not sure why Eezox preformed so poorly in your test.. it has always been near the top of any rust test I've seen  on firearms oils.
I have seen other corrosion tests on line as well and I was surprised that Eezox did not do better too. Keep in mind that corrosion tests are a sample size of 1 so take it with a grain of salt, or water, or...?

I also found it odd that the Pro Gold product performed so poorly, in the corrosion test, especially considering its a bicycle chain lube. You would think it would have better corrosion protection knowing that a bicycle chain would be exposed to the elements.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Froneck on Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:45 am

There is an additive that will prevent rusting. I use synthetic soluble cutting oil in my machines. Mix it 20 to one with water yet it will not rust the machines. For years I had rushing problems having a very large building and impossible to heat it entirely, machines that were not used often would tend to rust due to condensation. Also some machines it the heated area would also rust when not used often if the weather conditions were such that condensation would form. Condensate a deionized water thought it may contain some impurities is very hungry and will cause rust much faster than tap water. I had a CNC Bridgeport (still have it) that I didn't use often since most of my work was one of. To protect the table I tried TAL a WD-40 product that contains oil. WD-40 would not work!! One day I noticed the well TAL oiled table had rust pits below the oil surface. I realized that the condensate would form on the oil surface eventually bead causing it to sink below the oil. Not being protected from evaporation was "eating" my table. I came up with my concoction of mixing oil with the synthetic soluble and it work great. If the soluble oil was used directly it would "dry" to form a sticky goo however often machines were delivered being "trucked" in the rain. I would quickly spray that soluble coolant on all bare metal surfaces and nothing rusted!  Sometime later I purchased a grease made by Schaeffer Oil I put it on exposed metal surfaces on my forklift that I keep outside due to I have no room inside. It will not wash off and metal remains rust free! Has been outside for years!  One of my favorite ways to clean greasy item is to let it sit outside for a while, condensate floats off all the grease but what ever that additive is will stop that. I also use Outboard Motor Oils on my machines as they to claim to have a rust proofing  additive.


Last edited by Froneck on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jglenn21 on Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:06 pm

I started using the new WD40 Corrosion inhibitor last year on my machinery.. Works very well..  comes in a spray can. I also use it for my firearms for long term storage.

prefer it over CorrosionX or eEzox these days for the outside of any gun... prefer CorrosionX for the bore

Wd40 works pretty well for cleaning up machines around the shop.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Hawkja on Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:49 pm

What is the problem with military CLP / Break Free? It was thoroughly tested and has been in use in the US military for over 30 years. I thought it worked well for the M16A2. I currently use it on my BE pistols... is it a decent all purpose oil for Bullseye?

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Re: An oil thread

Post by jglenn21 on Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:33 pm

CLP is fine Jason.. if it works for you  and your guns run a whole 2700 without an issue what else would you need...

Lot's of oils work for us.. just look at this thread...

other than the upper and lower locking lugs along with the hammer hooks, I don't see a need on the 1911 for anything special..

Not sure what the Falex test has in common to our needs... it's a valid bearing load test but No bearings in a 1911...


one thing I love about oil threads is they go on and on and.......

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Wobbley on Mon Aug 08, 2016 4:45 pm

Yup lots of lubes work because guns are usually very lightly loaded compared to other machinery.  I remember back in the 1980s the hot topic amongst service rifle shooters was the correct lube for M1 and M1A operating rods.  You'd see one or two (dozen) guys ask the armorers at the vans at Perry and each branch had their own answers.  All worked but there were several heated discussions in the pits about what was correct.  

Same here for bullseye pistols.  Most light oils will work, some will work longer and in most cases a light grease will work too.  There is no magic potion, regardless of the marketing hype.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:56 pm

Hawkja wrote:What is the problem with military CLP / Break Free? It was thoroughly tested and has been in use in the US military for over 30 years. I thought it worked well for the M16A2. I currently use it on my BE pistols... is it a decent all purpose oil for Bullseye?
Hawk,
I would be glad to test your oil if you can mail me a small sample. I only need a tablespoon of the oil to perform the test. Just send me a PM and I will give you my mailing address.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Hawkja on Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:34 am

In USMC boot camp (or SOI) they instructed us that to clean the rifle, to inspection ready, its a three day process (when cleaned correctly). After firing the rifle, lube everything down with CLP (bore, chamber, bolt carrier etc.). 

Day two: Clean and remove all the carbon and powder from firing.. then re-apply CLP...

Day three: looked like you had a brand new rifle (after you wiped the CLP off everything). 

 In my experience, It works great, both in garrison (as described above), and in combat (where you don't get three days for weapons maintenance).

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Re: An oil thread

Post by john bickar on Tue Aug 09, 2016 1:50 am

Which is the best on the 1st and 2nd joints of the trigger finger?

That's the one that I need.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Tue Aug 09, 2016 7:07 am

john bickar wrote:Which is the best on the 1st and 2nd joints of the trigger finger?

That's the one that I need.
All kidding aside, the human body is a complex machine and it requires lubrication just as our beloved fire arms do. Ground Flax seed works wonders on stiff joints or Arthritis. Take 1 heaping tablespoon of ground Flax seed in 4 ounces of water and mix thoroughly. Drink each morning and chase with 4 ounces of water. Do this faithfully for 30 days and you WILL feel the difference. I have been doing this for years and it does work. I stopped this for a few weeks and my aches and stiff joints quickly returned. It didn't take me long to start the process again. You can find flax seed in the flour section of your grocery for about $4.00 for a small bag. I have purchased pre-ground and hole seeds and I think grinding your own seeds works a tad better. Use a small electric coffee grinder to process the whole seeds into a fine powder.  

I challenge you guys to take try this and report your results in a month or two! OK, back to our regularly scheduled original topic.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:11 am

I tried to update my test data on page 1 but the forum software would not allow it. Therefore I am posting the updated data below:

FALEX Film Strength Test Data:      Pounds of forceDays Before
     Time BeforeTo break Rust
DateManufacturerProduct descriptionCommon Name / UseCategory Audible FailureThrough oil filmAppears
17/14/16Lucas OilSynthetic stabilizer Oil3 seconds014
24/28/16Car QuestSuper Premium A/C Ester oilOil4 seconds07
34/28/16LPSLPS 1Spray oil, WORST RUST!Oil5 seconds03
47/14/16STPFull syntheticOil additiveOil5 seconds03
57/14/16STPOriginal formulaOil additiveOil5 seconds0 
64/28/16Brian Enos'sSlide Glide LiteGrease / G oilGrease6 seconds0 
74/28/16EezoxPremium synthetic gun care G Oil7 seconds07
84/28/16Bel Ray80W Gear SaverMotorcycle transmission oilOil7 seconds014
94/28/16Lubri-Kit.comSFL-OGreaseGrease7 seconds0 
104/28/16Exxon MobilXHP222GreaseGrease7 seconds0 
114/28/16FastexWater proof / EPGreaseGrease7 seconds0 
124/28/16LucasG OilG OilG Oil7 seconds014
134/28/16KlotzSuper Techniplate2 cycle oilOil8 seconds014
144/28/16Brian Enos'sSlide Glide #1Grease / G oilGrease8 seconds018
154/28/16G-MaxG-MaxGreaseGrease8 seconds0 
164/28/16LucasRed N TackyGreaseGrease8 seconds0 
177/14/16Red Oil #1ATF, Mtr Oil, STP, Hoppes #93, 1, .5, .125G Oil10 seconds014
184/28/16Exxon MobilHigh TemperatureRed synthetic greaseGrease10 seconds0 
194/28/16Mobil 1Synthetic, 10W-30Extended Performance Motor OilOil11 seconds014
204/28/16CastrolViskogen KL 300Aerosol synthetic chain lubeOil12 seconds019
214/28/16FalkCoupling GreaseGreaseGrease12 seconds0 
224/28/16LubriplateWhite LithiumGreaseGrease14 seconds0 
234/28/16Super Slick Slick StuffCLPAerosol  Oil15 seconds028
244/28/16Exxon MobilSHC 634Synthetic gear oilOil16 seconds014
254/28/16ThompsonLinear LubeGreaseGrease18 seconds0 
264/28/16Wilson CombatUltimate Weapon LubeUniversal OilG Oil24 seconds028
274/28/16Exxon MobilVactra #4Way OilOil33 seconds014
284/28/16Royal PurpleMax-Film syntheticPenetrating lubricant, aerosolOil40 seconds014
294/28/16Exxon Mobil600XP-150Gear OilOil50 seconds014
304/28/16RemingtonRem-Oil G Oil50 seconds014
314/28/16Ed's RedHome made CLP G Oil50 seconds031
324/28/16BalistolMultipurpose CLP G Oil60+ seconds10 lbs14
334/28/16Exxon MobilDTE 25Hydraulic oilOil60+ seconds10 lbs14
344/28/16Exxon MobilVactra #2Way OilOil60+ seconds10 lbs14
354/28/16Lubri-Kit.comFMO-350 AW G Oil60+ seconds10 lbs14
364/28/16Dura LubeTransmission TreatmentAdditiveOil60+ seconds20 lbs14
374/28/16Hoppe's#9 Gun oilG Oil60+ seconds20 lbs14
384/28/16Royal Purple10W-30Motor OilOil60+ seconds20 lbs14
397/14/16WD-40  Oil60+ seconds20 lbs14
407/14/16Red Oil #2ATF, MMO, STP, Hoppes #91, .5, .5, .125G Oil60+ seconds20 lbs14
417/14/16Gun Oil80/90 BelRay Gear Oil, Rem Oil1,1G Oil60+ seconds20 lbs20
427/14/16Bug JuiceM1, ATF, STP, Hoppes #92, 1, .5, .125G Oil60+ seconds20 lbs28
437/1/16LPSTapmatic #1 GoldCutting fluidOil60+ seconds20 lbsDidn't test
447/1/16Valvoline10W30Motor OilOil60+ seconds20 lbsDidn't test
457/1/16WalmartSuper Tech, 10W30, synthetic,Motor OilOil60+ seconds20 lbsDidn't test
467/1/16OutersG OilG OilG Oil60+ seconds20 lbsDidn't test
477/1/16CastrolGTX 20W50Motor OilOil60+ seconds20 lbsDidn't test
488/17/16Interstate LubricantsSynthetic gun oil & cleanerG OilG Oil60+ seconds20 lbs 
498/17/16ALG DefenseGo-JuiceGun oilG Oil60+ seconds20 lbs 
504/28/16Exxon MobilNuto 68Hydraulic oilOil60+ seconds30 lbs14
514/28/16Exxon Mobil600 XP-220Gear OilOil60+ seconds30 lbs14
527/14/16Red Oil #4M1, ATF, LOS, Hoppes #9, MMO2, 2, 3, 2, 1G Oil60+ seconds30 lbs14
534/28/16Mobil 1SyntheticATFOil60+ seconds30 lbs19
547/14/16Quaker StateUltradurability synthetic 0W20Motor OilOil60+ seconds30 lbs20
555/23/14Exxon MobilDTE LiteAir line oilOil60+ seconds30 lbs28
567/1/16Super Lube85W Mulitpurpose oil, with Syncolon (PTFE)Oil60+ seconds30 lbsDidn't test
577/1/16Mobil 1Extended performance, 5W20,Motor OilOil60+ seconds30 lbsDidn't test
587/1/16CastrolATF + 4, full synthetic,ATFOil60+ seconds30 lbsDidn't test
598/17/16CLPBreak FreeCLPG Oil60+ seconds30 lbs 
604/28/16Marvel Mystery Oil Oil60+ seconds40 lbs10
615/23/14Exxon MobilNuto 68Hydraulic oilOil60+ seconds40 lbs14
624/28/16FastexEP Chain LubeFBACCL46EPOil60+ seconds40 lbs28
635/23/14Castrol69510Lube con w/ molyOil60+ seconds40 lbs31
647/1/16Rural King5W30 Synthetic blendMotor OilOil60+ seconds40 lbsDidn't test
657/1/16Mobil 10W40Motor OilOil60+ seconds40 lbsDidn't test
667/14/16Marine RedSTP, ATF, MMO, M1.5, 1, 1, 1.5G Oil60+ seconds40 lbs 
678/2/16MobilJet IIJet turbine oilOil60+ seconds40 lbs14
688/25/16Mil ComTW-25BOil additiveOil60+ seconds50 lbs 
697/14/16Red Oil #3M1, ATF, LOS, MMO, FSM1, 1, 1, .5, 1G Oil60+ seconds50 lbs14
707/1/16Super LubeSyntheticwith Syncolon (PTFE)Grease60+ seconds50 lbs 
717/1/16Super LubeSynthetic, High Temp,with Syncolon (PTFE)Grease60+ seconds110 lbs 
724/28/16DuralubeEngine TreatmentAdditiveOil60+ seconds140 lbs14
734/28/16FastexF-FSM-001Surface ModifierOil60+ seconds140 lbs14
744/28/16ProlongEngine TreatmentAdditiveOil60+ seconds140 lbs14
754/28/16CastrolMolub-alloy CH22Aerosol synthetic chain lubeOil60+ seconds140 lbs 
765/23/14DuPontTeflon Non-StickDry film lubricant w/ TeflonOil60+ seconds180 lbs3
774/28/16Shooter's ChoiceFP-10Gun oil, WORST RUST!G Oil60+ seconds180 lbs3
787/14/16Pro GoldPro-LinkBicycle chain lube, WORST RUST!Chain Oil60+ seconds180 lbs3
795/23/14DuPontChain SaverWax based chain lube w/ TeflonOil60+ seconds180 lbs7
804/28/16FastexCorrosion InhibitorFBACCLOil60+ seconds180 lbs28
818/2/16Mil ComTW-25GreaseGrease60+ seconds180 lbs 
828/25/16Weapon ShieldWeapon ShieldGun oilG Oil60+ seconds180 lbs +++ 


Last edited by igolfat8 on Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:54 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: An oil thread

Post by Sa-tevp on Thu Aug 18, 2016 10:04 am

When I copy and paste to Excel I see this information (using TW25 for example):

        - 80
Date - 8/2/2016
Manufacturer - Mil Com
Product Description - TW-25
Common Name / Use - Grease
Category - Grease
Seconds Before Audible Failure - 60+
       - 3940
       - Blank

What are the last two columns in your data?

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 11:29 am

The last column on the right is how many days a bare sample of steel, coated with the oil being tested, resisted rust in an outdoor environment, here in Ohio. For example if 14 appears in the last column, then the sample did not show any rust for 14 days but rust did appear on the 15th day.

The next to last column, on the right, represents how much weight (in grams) the film from one drop of oil, withstood before an audible metal to metal contact was heard. Each of my test weights are 218 grams. If 436 appears in the column then the oil film strength withstood the weight of 2 discs or 436 grams but when the 3rd disc of weight was added then the film strength failed and metal to metal contact was audibly heard.

Keep in mind that the machine uses a lever to apply the weight so the weight ad the test point is compounded by the leverage ratio, which I do not know what that is. I will look into it because it would be interesting to know what the final weight is that is applied at the test point of contact.

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Re: An oil thread

Post by igolfat8 on Thu Aug 18, 2016 12:25 pm

I called Falex and they sent a chart to me showing the "LUBRICITY TESTER LEVER RATIO". The tester uses two levers. One lever holds the weight, in my case I can stack 218 gram discs at the end of the lever. That lever has a fulcrum 11.75" away from the test weight. 1.375" From the fulcrum the weight holding lever bears against a second lever. At that point the leveraged weight on one 218 gram discs becomes 1862.9 grams of force applied to lever two. 2.8125" Away from that point of force is a fulcrum for lever two. 1.15625" from lever two's fulcrum is the actual test point of contact where a fixed bearing is forced against a spinning hardened steel race. At that point of contact is 4,532 grams of force or ~10 lbs. Therefore, for each 218 gram disc that I add on the end of lever one equates to approximately 10 lbs of force being applied to the oil film that we are testing.

Therefore, to make my chart less confusing I am going to edit the grams of weight applied at the end of the lever to show the actual [end] force required to break through the oil film being tested. 

The chart shown is updated now.

PS, keep in mind that the area of the oil being tested on the Falex machine is about 1/4 the diameter of the head on a straight pin or approximately the area of a 1/64" diameter circle. Its pretty impressive that one drop of oil can withstand 180 lbs of force in an area that small. Its doubtful that any of our guns have this kind of load applied to that small of an area so choosing an oil that can withstand 180 lbs of force is probably overkill.

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Re: An oil thread

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