How To Score a target with excessive hits

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How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Richard Ashmore on 7/18/2016, 1:33 pm

Crossfires happen!  There were a bunch on Range 4 this year, and the range personnel spent a lot of time explaining what to do.

For those who have forgotten, see rule 14.10-

14.10 Excessive Hits - If more than the required number of hits appear on the target, any shot which can be identified by the appearance of the bullet hole as having been fired by some competitor, other than the competitor assigned to that target, or as having been fired in a previous string, will be pasted and will not be scored. If more than the required numbers of hits then remain on the target a complete new score will be fired and the original score will be disregarded, except: 
(a) If all hits are of equal value, the score will be recorded as the required number of hits of that value. 
(b) The competitor shall be allowed to accept a score equal to the required number of hits of lowest value. 
(c) If a competitor fi res fewer than the prescribed number of shots through the competitors own fault, and there should be more hits on the target than the shots fired, the competitor will be scored the number of shots of highest value equal to the number fired, and will be given a miss for each unfired cartridge. 
(d) If a competitor, by mistake, fires more than the required number of shots, the required number of hits of lowest value will be scored. This shall not be considered a refire as outlined in Rule 9.14. 
(e) If the competitor refires, the original target with excessive hits shall be retained by the designated range offi cial and on refiring, the competitor may not receive a score higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target. If the score on the refired target is higher than the required number of hits of highest value on the original target, then the original target shall be scored using the appropriate hits of highest value; but if the score on the refired target is not higher, then such refired score will be recorded.


Last edited by Richard Ashmore on 7/18/2016, 1:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : punctuation)
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by james r chapman on 7/18/2016, 2:43 pm

I got tired of hearing" that can't be mine".

And then " this looks like a double."
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/18/2016, 3:10 pm


That 9 can't be mine...let alone the 3 8's I didn't take a pic of ....
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by cdrt on 7/18/2016, 5:09 pm

This is the section most people have a problem with at the matches I have run:

14.5 Early or Late Shots - When a shot is fired early or late, that is, before or after the signal to commence or cease fire, when the required number of hits are visible on the face of the target, the value of the highest hit will be scored a miss. When fewer than the required number of hits are visible on the target, the competitor will be scored a miss for each shot not on the target, and those visible on the target will be scored in the normal manner.

Most shooters think you score the lowest shot as a miss, not the highest when all hits are on the target.  We had one guy whose late shot was a visible miss, so he lost an X and the miss was counted as a miss.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/18/2016, 8:21 pm

Is it based off the ready on the firing line and cease fire or targets turning towards and away


Last edited by Christopher Miceli on 7/18/2016, 10:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Froneck on 7/18/2016, 10:05 pm

Well looking at the target posted it should be scored a 100-9X Since there could have been more than one round thought that large hole. The 9 is easily identifiable as not the same so it can be overlooked! Therefor not requiring  you to take the lowest score or a refire that can't exceed the score of 100-9X


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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/18/2016, 10:08 pm

Froneck wrote:Well looking at the target posted it should be scored a 100-9X Since there could have been more than one round thought that large hole. The 9 is easily identifiable as not the same so it can be overlooked! Therefor not requiring  you to take the lowest score or a ref refire that can't exceed the score of 100-9X
I snapped 3 8s to the right... I am proud of the group though
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by cdrt on 7/19/2016, 10:36 am

Christopher Miceli wrote:Is it based off the ready on the firing line and cease fire or targets turning towards and away
It would be an early shot before the targets start to turn.  A late shot would be after they have turned away.  Your time commences at the instant they start to turn. With the new electronic targets, it is easier to tell since it's my understanding if you shoot while the light is red, the shot is not counted.  Generally it's pretty easy to tell an early or late shot, since, if it impacts the target, it will some sort of long slider or as we've seen here, it will hit the side of the target frame and punch a hole to the other side of the frame.

One time, when I was shooting matches at Chabot Gun Club in Oakland, one of the guys had an early shot and split the frame in two, so it folded in on itself.  We just use cardboard on our indoor range.  One of the guys shot early and split the target completely in half, but just left a crease in the cardboard.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/19/2016, 10:45 am

cdrt wrote:
Christopher Miceli wrote:Is it based off the ready on the firing line and cease fire or targets turning towards and away
It would be an early shot before the targets start to turn.  A late shot would be after they have turned away.  Your time commences at the instant they start to turn. With the new electronic targets, it is easier to tell since it's my understanding if you shoot while the light is red, the shot is not counted.  Generally it's pretty easy to tell an early or late shot, since, if it impacts the target, it will some sort of long slider or as we've seen here, it will hit the side of the target frame and punch a hole to the other side of the frame.

One time, when I was shooting matches at Chabot Gun Club in Oakland, one of the guys had an early shot and split the frame in two, so it folded in on itself.  We just use cardboard on our indoor range.  One of the guys shot early and split the target completely in half, but just left a crease in the cardboard.
Cool now how do you score skidders that were shot while it was turning
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by james r chapman on 7/19/2016, 11:19 am

Original entry point.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by carykiteboarder on 7/19/2016, 11:51 am

Ok, now you've made me curious.  I thought that no matter the speed of the turning target mechanism, the time limits pertain to the duration that the target is fully faced to the shooter.  Thus, no matter if the target turning mechanism takes 0.25 seconds or 2 whole seconds, the target should not begin to rotate away from the shooter until it has been stopped, facing the competitor, for the full time allowance.  Is this right?  For a controller, the sequence is rotate (face), delay, rotate (edge).  The target turning controller has to be configured to add the "rotate (face)" time to the delay (10/20) seconds.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by cdrt on 7/19/2016, 12:59 pm

james r chapman wrote:Original entry point.
(b) In case of skid shots, the higher value is awarded if the leaded edge of the bullet hole touches the scoring ring of higher value, except the value of a skid shot may not be more than one ring higher than the original point of bullet contact with the target. The target shall be defined as the entire card or paper on which the scoring rings are printed but shall not include the backing. When the original point of bullet contact is on the target card, but outside the scoring rings, and the leaded edge of the bullet touches a scoring ring, it will be given the value of the lowest scoring ring.
(c) When a bullet enters a target from the back side it will be scored as a miss.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by cdrt on 7/19/2016, 1:18 pm

carykiteboarder wrote:Ok, now you've made me curious.  I thought that no matter the speed of the turning target mechanism, the time limits pertain to the duration that the target is fully faced to the shooter.  Thus, no matter if the target turning mechanism takes 0.25 seconds or 2 whole seconds, the target should not begin to rotate away from the shooter until it has been stopped, facing the competitor, for the full time allowance.  Is this right?  For a controller, the sequence is rotate (face), delay, rotate (edge).  The target turning controller has to be configured to add the "rotate (face)" time to the delay (10/20) seconds.
The Conventional Pistol Rule book does not address this directly.  The International Rule Book does however, since they have a long section on how fast targets should turn, which direction they should turn and for how long the duration is for the target to face the shooter.

Page 18
6.8 Target Equipment
(g) Timing shall be started at the moment the targets begin to face and shall stop at the moment they begin to turn away.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Froneck on 7/19/2016, 2:18 pm

I will have to check the rule book again as I haven't looked at it in a long time. However skidders were always scored as per direction of travel. If the impact on the target was so that the length of the skid was traveling in a way that at the point of entry continued on to lower score rings the point of entry was scored at the higher point of entry. However if the path was the length continued to larger value rings the the point of entry +1 was scored.
 I don't remember if any turn time was specified but at one time the targets had to start to turn after 3 seconds from when "All ready on the firing line" was given. Later that was removed but the time had to remain the same for all competitors. Faced time was at the point the target stopped moving and remain full faced for either 10 or 20 seconds depending on the match being shot.

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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Axehandle on 7/19/2016, 2:40 pm

That is the way I was taught too.  The time only counts when the targets are square to the shooter.  The turn time to and from was always free time.  Break that first shot when the target is in transition and you have 10 or 20 seconds for 4 shots. On a well run range you could count the three seconds off in your head and fire the shot.    Can come in handy but it varies so much from range to range you can't depend on the extra time.  The electronic targets eliminate that....  They have no turning time.  International uses a skid gauge.   Seems like over 1.5 bullet diameter and it is a miss.

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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by cdrt on 7/19/2016, 5:35 pm

Froneck wrote:I will have to check the rule book again as I haven't looked at it in a long time. However skidders were always scored as per direction of travel. If the impact on the target was so that the length of the skid was traveling in a way that at the point of entry continued on to lower score rings the point of entry was scored at the higher point of entry. However if the path was the length continued to larger value rings the the point of entry +1 was scored.
 I don't remember if any turn time was specified but at one time the targets had to start to turn after 3 seconds from when "All ready on the firing line" was given. Later that was removed but the time had to remain the same for all competitors. Faced time was at the point the target stopped moving and remain full faced for either 10 or 20 seconds depending on the match being shot.
I did some more checking, this is from the current Conventional Pistol Rule Book:

8.1 Computing Time - When rotating targets are used time is taken for the period during which the target is fully exposed. Time is not checked on each individual shot but is computed on the indicated allowance for each five-shot string depending on the type of fire being conducted, except slow fire may be fired in 10-shot strings. The signal to commence firing may be given orally, by whistle or by having the targets turn. Shots fired when targets are turning will be scored in accordance with Rule 14.3.

If you re-read what I posted above, yes, skidders are scored in the direction of travel.  The three second rule for the targets to turn is still in the rule book at the top of page 26 under 10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands.
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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by Wobbley on 7/19/2016, 6:07 pm

The intent of the three second rule is for the start of turning after "All Ready on the Firing Line" range command.  Otherwise an immediate ceasefire fire is supposed to be given and a range alibi occurs.

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Re: How To Score a target with excessive hits

Post by cdrt on 7/19/2016, 8:45 pm

Wobbley wrote:The intent of the three second rule is for the start of turning after "All Ready on the Firing Line" range command.  Otherwise an immediate ceasefire fire is supposed to be given and a range alibi occurs.
The rule says "approximately three seconds".  If for example, the targets turned at 2.5 seconds or 4 seconds, I doubt if you would see a range alibi.  Our indoor target turner has a built in 3 second delay.  The target system at Raton can be set for any delay, so when we use that one, we pre-set it for the three seconds.  There is also supposed to be an approximate three second delay between each command. i.e. ready on the right, ready on the left (bottom of page 26 of the rule book).  I have called range alibis on our outdoor range, since the system does not have a set delay and it is up to the person running the system to count the three second delay before hitting the button to turn the targets.  I use a stop watch to count to make sure it is consistent.
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