Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

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Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Orpanaut on Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:25 pm

After firing a shot in slow fire, do you let the trigger reset and bring the sights/dot back on target for another shot?

I've learned to follow through and hold the trigger back after a shot, just because the alternative is to try to move the trigger "just enough" for a shot and that leads to poor trigger control.  But holding the pistol up and prepping for another shot seems excessive.  Is it?

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by AllAces on Mon Jul 25, 2016 1:55 pm

During slow fire I come back on target and acquire my sight picture as if to shoot another round.  This reinforces muscle memory for timed and rapid fire.  It's the sight picture I'm trying to reinforce.  Trigger control is a separate exercise.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:07 pm

Very few of the top shooters I know take it as far as prepping for next shot. In conversation I've found that most are concentrating on feedback from the shot and calling the shot. Its reinforcing the shot and execution. I believe SF demands the most effort to repeatedly execute precision shots. The shortline is basically just keep the trigger moving and 10's happen Smile But the SF shot requires a completely different mental follow through. Notice I said 'mental'. I see a lot of lower classified shooters going through the motions of follow through and they look good doing it. But the target tells a completely different story. So I'm a firm believer for SF that its not necessary to follow through as to prepare for a next shot.
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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by orpheoet on Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:29 pm

When I was new I shot an indoor match with a lot of other relative newcomers on a second relay. After watching us flinging lead all over the place in sustained fire the guy calling the match pointed out that in slow fire he watched us all fire the shot and immediately lower the pistol. He suggested that was missed opportunity for practicing recovery for sustained fire. Since then I bring the dot or sights back as though preparing for another shot and THEN lower the pistol. It's helped me...

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by LenV on Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:49 pm

I recover completely from a slow fire shot like I planned on shooting again. Because I plan on shooting again. If I am in the middle of my calm period and I still feel like I am going to make a decent shot I let my body take control and fire the second shot. When I am having a good day on the long line I will be firing a lot of doubles and sometimes a triple. On a bad day then every shot is fired and fought for one at a time. Even on those days I bring it back to full recovery. This may not work for everyone but I find as I get older it works the best for me. YMMV

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by john bickar on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:33 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Very few of the top shooters I know take it as far as prepping for next shot. In conversation I've found that most are concentrating on feedback from the shot and calling the shot. Its reinforcing the shot and execution. I believe SF demands the most effort to repeatedly execute precision shots. The shortline is basically just keep the trigger moving and 10's happen Smile  But the SF shot requires a completely different mental follow through. Notice I said 'mental'. I see a lot of lower classified shooters going through the motions of follow through and they look good doing it. But the target tells a completely different story. So I'm a firm believer for SF that its not necessary to follow through as to prepare for a next shot.
Jon

I respectfully disagree with about half of what you're saying here. Well, maybe not so much "disagree" as "have a different opinion and experiences".

More in a bit.

Good topic, OP.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by john bickar on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:13 pm

Orpanaut wrote:After firing a shot in slow fire, do you let the trigger reset and bring the sights/dot back on target for another shot?

Yes.

Orpanaut wrote:I've learned to follow through and hold the trigger back after a shot, just because the alternative is to try to move the trigger "just enough" for a shot and that leads to poor trigger control.  But holding the pistol up and prepping for another shot seems excessive.  Is it?

I do not believe it's excessive. I believe it's very helpful; more on that in a bit.

OldMaster66 wrote:I recover completely from a slow fire shot like I planned on shooting again. Because I plan on shooting again. If I am in the middle of my calm period and I still feel like I am going to make a decent shot I let my body take control and fire the second shot. When I am having a good day on the long line I will be firing a lot of doubles and sometimes a triple. On a bad day then every shot is fired and fought for one at a time. Even on those days I bring it back to full recovery.

This is a very accurate description of my slow fire shot process as well.

Jon Eulette wrote:Very few of the top shooters I know take it as far as prepping for next shot.

Then I'm an exception. Yay, I'm "exceptional!"  Laughing  Or else I'm not a "top shooter"  Embarassed

Jon Eulette wrote:In conversation I've found that most are concentrating on feedback from the shot and calling the shot. Its reinforcing the shot and execution. I believe SF demands the most effort to repeatedly execute precision shots. The shortline is basically just keep the trigger moving and 10's happen Smile

Yes, yes, and yes.

Jon Eulette wrote: But the SF shot requires a completely different mental follow through. Notice I said 'mental'.

Here's where I'll quibble; more in a bit.

Jon Eulette wrote:I see a lot of lower classified shooters going through the motions of follow through and they look good doing it. But the target tells a completely different story.

I watch a lot of lower classified shooters; a lot. To a (wo)man, they almost invariably have zero follow through. And so I watch them some more, and - lo and behold - zero follow through indicates that they have zero shot plan. Follow through is the ruthless continuation of your shot plan. And that's important.

Jon Eulette wrote:So I'm a firm believer for SF that its not necessary to follow through as to prepare for a next shot.

And here's where I'll quibble again. I think that follow through is critical to slow fire for bullseye, especially in .45 where recoil masks a lot of what's going on at the moment that the shot breaks. Ironically, I didn't learn this - that is, I didn't make the move from Master to High Master - until I started getting really good at air pistol. (By "really good" I mean 580s.)

I'd like to reiterate Len's point - shoot each slow fire shot like you're planning on shooting again. When you have that "feel", shoot doubles, and even triples. It takes some work to get to that point, but it will pay off. I shot in a team match a few years ago with a long-time mentor of mine. I was struggling a bit at the long line, and he was scoping me. I did manage to shoot one double in the string of 10, and when I walked off the line he said, "What did you shoot on that double?" I said, "A 9 and a 10." (My score on that SF was less than 95.) He said, "Why don't you shoot doubles the whole way through?", and I said, "You're confusing cause and effect. I shot a double because the trigger was moving. If I force a double, it's going to be twice the mess."

This mental approach really shows up at 50 feet. Why can I shoot a tight 100-8x Timed Fire, but shoot a 90 slow fire? 8 Xs on the 50' timed fire target is 8 10s on the 50' slow fire target.

(Not picking on you in particular, Jon; you just bear the brunt because you're articulate  Laughing )

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Jack H on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:15 pm

I do not think you have to come back to the target.  I look at SF like Freepistol.  The way I was taught years ago is best described by Joe White "keep the sights aligned before, during and after the fall of the hammer".  I kind of think that any trial to re-align the sights for a second SF shot, might short circuit the subconscious' track that made the previous shot.  Of course, weather and wind shooting is another story.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:23 pm

John, Thanks for the great dialogue. I've equated SF to free and air for many years. Single shot pistols.....you don't prepare for another shot. Yeah BE is different. I think knowing what a 10 looks like and feels like is more important than prepping for another shot. Follow through to me is staying with the pistol through recoil. During that process you know what you just shot. Had nothing to do with trying to get the pistol back into shooting position as if prepping for another shot; as in sustained fire.
So whatever works is key for each shooter.
Jon

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by john bickar on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:28 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:So whatever works is key for each shooter.

Truth.

Have you ever watched Bill Demarest shoot? You'd swear he was putting the gun down before the projectile left the barrel. But he's a World Record holder and an Olympian...

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:34 pm

Never saw Bill shoot. I was a non-shooter at the time. Some years ago (12?) I was shooting free at Chino and he stopped by range. I think the most hardcore guy that preps for the 2nd shot during SF is Henderson. Dude is solid in his recovery.
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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Wobbley on Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:31 am

I understand the rationale for follow though.  It makes you concentrate on your hold through the completion of the shot.  However by the time the gun has recoiled off the target, the bullet is already at the target.  Recovery to the target is an exaggerated follow through and isn't necessary.  Good way to train, tho.  

But I don't consider the shot callable unless I see the brass eject.  This tells me I didn't flinch.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by davekp on Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:30 am

For me, returning to the target after the shot breaks is part of my shot process. I'm not so apt to end the shot process that way after the trigger breaks. If trigger break is the last step in my shot process, I might start rushing that step or losing concentration toward the end of the trigger pull.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by john bickar on Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:31 pm

Wobbley wrote:But I don't consider the shot callable unless I see the brass eject.

Counterpoint: if you see the brass eject, how intensely are you really watching the front sight/dot?

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Christopher Miceli on Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:34 am

john bickar wrote:
Wobbley wrote:  But I don't consider the shot callable unless I see the brass eject.

Counterpoint: if you see the brass eject, how intensely are you really watching the front sight/dot?
Shocked Shocked

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Wobbley on Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:50 am

A
john bickar wrote:
Wobbley wrote:But I don't consider the shot callable unless I see the brass eject.

Counterpoint: if you see the brass eject, how intensely are you really watching the front sight/dot?
I usually see it as a glint of brass leaving the gun.  I'm still looking at the front sight but I pickup the shell ejecting in the peripheral vision.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

Post by Regular_Guy on Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:37 am

john bickar wrote:
Wobbley wrote:But I don't consider the shot callable unless I see the brass eject.

Counterpoint: if you see the brass eject, how intensely are you really watching the front sight/dot?


John, I think there is a big difference in the eye picking up a glint of the brass as it ejects and losing focus on the front sight to try to focus on watching the brass eject.

When I first started shooting Highpower my standing in particular was lacking. One of the coaches stressed that if follow through was correct and the front sight was intently focused on and focus not broken, a shooter would start noticing the brass being ejected out of the rifle. As my standing scores started to increase my eye began to notice the ejection more for some reason, maybe it was just mental.

With the ejection port of the pistol being further away from the face than that of an AR, in theory it might be easier to notice the ejected brass from the pistol. I notice it more with the 22 than with the 45 myself, but my skill level in Bullseye still has plenty of room for improvement.

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Re: Slow Fire Recovery: Prep for Another Shot?

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