Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

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Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by clark2245 on Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:34 pm

First topic message reminder :

From what we found in a quick online search this year was the first time since 1958 that the winning score was not above 2600.   If correct that seems quite amazing, especially considering the conditions didn't seem that bad.   Though I, like most everyone else, didn't shoot very well.

When Hemphill came by during teams and talked to us, and let me take his picture (link is in another post here) he stated "I won this for the old guys!"   He told us he is 64, and I believe he is the first senior to win the championship.   Steve Reiter was there and said he is 10 years older, which if my math is correct means he was 59 when he won the last time in 2000.  

After hearing some more rumors during the matches about moving to the Cardinal, and many posts here, I got curious and went to the source.  I emailed Denny Willing, Director of Competition at the NRA, to find out what is really going to happen.   He was quite direct that we are staying at Camp Perry.   The key parts of his email are copied below, with his permission.


"Clark,
......
We are staying at Camp Perry.  I am not in negotiations with Cardinal Center. We are not moving. We are about to negotiate a new working agreement with CMP that will likely last at least 5 years, maybe longer.

I hope this makes everything clear for everyone. 

Denny"

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by DirComp on Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:33 am

I want everyone to know my clear position on where we shoot. 

I have been to Camp Perry for 37 consecutive years.  I admire and appreciate the history of Camp Perry.  I lived in the old huts for 20 years and tolerated the flooding, lack of air conditioning, bugs, and communal bath facilities, but have also enjoyed the cookouts in the hut area, commercial row open till late in the evening, and having a beer (or several) with friends as we walked from hut to hut to visit with friends after shooting was done.  I even lived in hut ZZ9, when ZZ10 was the last hut built.  I have been a competitor in Pistol and High Power, a volunteer, and a match official.  Believe me, I get it.

However, I also believe that Camp Perry is one of the worst places in the world to try and shoot a decent score.  Not that it can't be done, it can, but for the average guy it's not the best place to do it.  I would prefer a place where everyone's skills are allowed to shine through, where your score isn't dependent upon the wind and sudden storms coming off Lake Erie, and where you don't shoot in mud up to your knees.

I would also like a place where the schedule of the matches belongs to us and us only. 

If this was about where I want to shoot, as has been suggested, we would have moved from Camp Perry in 2012 when I got this job.  However, in another section of this forum is a poll where a certain number of competitors want to stay at Camp Perry. 

It has also been suggested that I ignored a previous poll where competitors wanted to move from Camp Perry.  That poll had a far different set of parameters, in that the question was; do you want to move from Camp Perry if electronic targets are installed?  That's far different from; do you want to move from Camp Perry to find a better place to compete?

Let's see where this new poll takes us, and I would encourage everyone to respond, and we'll go from there.

Denny

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:41 am

DirComp wrote:
I would also like a place where the schedule of the matches belongs to us and us only. 

Denny
+5000


I just hope where ever or when ever the matchs are ...CMP matchs are held at the same time. Couldn't afford to shoot both in two different months.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by DirComp on Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:47 am

Christopher Miceli wrote:
DirComp wrote:
I would also like a place where the schedule of the matches belongs to us and us only. 

Denny
+5000


I just hope where ever or when ever the matchs are ...CMP matchs are held at the same time. Couldn't afford to shoot both in two different months.


That can't be guaranteed.

Denny

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:53 am

DirComp wrote:
Christopher Miceli wrote:
DirComp wrote:
I would also like a place where the schedule of the matches belongs to us and us only. 

Denny
+5000


I just hope where ever or when ever the matchs are ...CMP matchs are held at the same time. Couldn't afford to shoot both in two different months.


That can't be guaranteed.

Denny
For me NRA matchs win Smile
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by AllAces on Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:26 am

Is there a projected date when Cardinal will host a 2700 match, perhaps with DR and EIC?
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by jmdavis on Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:00 am

When Cardinal hosts a match, I will be there to shoot it. But that doesn't mean I don't like Camp Perry. I know a lot of people who have earned their first, or middle or final leg there. Conditions are not easy at Perry, its a wide open Cow Pasture with some drainage and a portable target system. But so far it appears to me that the proposed Cardinal range is a wide open cow pasture with overhead cover.

I have a friend who is a GOOD standing rifle shooter. He got to Perry his first year on a big team shooting 199's. He left Perry a different man after not shooting standing well. He set the goal of winning the Standing Matches at Perry the next year and focused on developing a position that would allow him to do that. He did.

My point is that overcoming the conditions is part of the process. I don't know what I think of Electronic Targets for pistol. But I will know after I shoot Talledega in Dec. I do know that I like turning targets and paper is just fine for me in general.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Caster3845 on Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:21 pm

I do not shoot the CMP matches myself, so the NRA matches would take priority. It would be nice to shoot under cover though.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by LenV on Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:35 pm

Cover is nice. But golf carts are my main attraction. Walking back and forth for a 900 no problem. Walking a mile to the range (I'm a commercial fisherman, we have a license to exaggerate) and you will find me in a pile half way there. Sciatica sucks.

Len
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by C-Train on Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:30 am

Time to poop or get off the pot already guys. Wanna go to Cardinal? Do it already! No one is keeping you. The NRA isn't forced into any leases or agreements for Camp Perry. First it was cost, then rain and mud, then electronic targets. do whatever suits you just quit complaining, whining, and moaning already! Then the same guys complain about lack of newcomers. Same old group of crusty old guys giving any newcomers crap about pistols that aren't 1911's or God-forbid, polymer framed pistols that "can't shoot accurate enough for this game!". Even though you're shooting modern variants of 70-year-old guns with the benefit of modern manufacturing and ammo improvements and STILL not scoring as good as the past greats whether at Perry or anywhere else. Quit complaining and shoot guys!! All this crap is a big part of why younger people don't get or stay involved. Tried to keep my mouth shut but enough is enough. Wanna go? Go!

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by dronning on Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:51 am

C-Train wrote:Time to poop or get off the pot already guys. Wanna go to Cardinal? Do it already! No one is keeping you. The NRA isn't forced into any leases or agreements for Camp Perry.
=========================================================
Even though you're shooting modern variants of 70-year-old guns with the benefit of modern manufacturing and ammo improvements and STILL not scoring as good as the past greats whether at Perry or anywhere else. 
C-Train, Maybe you missed this:
=========================================================
"Clark,
......
We are staying at Camp Perry.  I am not in negotiations with Cardinal Center. We are not moving. We are about to negotiate a new working agreement with CMP that will likely last at least 5 years, maybe longer.
I hope this makes everything clear for everyone. 


Denny"
==========================================================

An that would be variants of 105 year old guns!   Yep everyone knows it's not the arrow it's the indian.


- Dave
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Ghillieman on Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:59 am

The reason young people are not getting into bullseye is because no one knows we even exist!
Hell when was the last time you saw something about bullseye advertised to the general public? I've been shooting for a while now and just to find out about regional matches I have to know someone that knows someone.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:24 am

Ghillieman wrote:The reason young people are not getting into bullseye is because no one knows we even exist!
Hell when was the last time you saw something about bullseye advertised to the general public? I've been shooting for a while now and just to find out about regional matches I have to know someone that knows someone.

Agreed.  I started 2 years ago and only because I happened to make a friend who shot.  Otherwise I would have never known.  It's also not "easy" or visually exciting so that turns off a large segment who default to other games, which didn't exist when Bullseye was the only gun game in town.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by jmdavis on Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:18 am

It's largely word of mouth. I first learned of High Power when I was in my late 20's. But I knew no one who did it and no where where it was done. I shot my first match when I was 47 (the Creedmoor Games M1 match in 2011). I liked it and a retired Navy shooter (Fleet and All Navy Champion, Double Distinguished, 2nd Place Leech Cup with an M1) who came to watch me shoot that match loaned me an AR, taught me to clean it, and helped me learn to load for it. Later, when I found out about Pistol for the Fleet matches, he loaned me his ball gun to shoot it. Later, I bought his wad gun. 

My point is that as others have said, you don't learn about the Precision shooting sports as readily as the tactical ones, or cowboy action or shotgun. In general you wind up having to know someone to get involved. Fast forwarding a few years, I have helped a couple of other people get involved.  

But I will say this, no matter how well I shot IDPA or USPSA matches or 3 Gun, I have never felt the way that I do when I clean a sitting target at 200 yards or shoot a 100-10x in Timed fire. Never. The more people who experience that kind of success, the more shooters we will draw. But in the end, the precision side is hard and its not much fun blank wall dryfiring, working on positions, or working on grip week after week to reach any level of success. But without a doubt shooting a clean makes it worth it.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Froneck on Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:23 pm

If the CMP and OHNG want to control the events then if I were the NRA I would tell them where they can stick their range facility!!! I would be happy to move to Cardinal if it were that much better and new memories made!! Years ago the locals wanted to lynch the local Representative after voting to defund the DCM and create the CMP. If the shooters leave the locals will again start hounding him!

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by AllAces on Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:03 pm

I have not seen any projected dates for when Cardinal might complete the pistol ranges, or when they might hold their first 2700 match. My guess is that we probably won't shoot the first 2700 at Cardinal until 2018 at the earliest and I won't make a bet on that. I think it will be at least five years before they host their first 2700.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Froneck on Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Hmmmm seems interesting that Cardinal will be at least 5 years before ready to have their first 2700 and the NRA making a 5 year deal to stay at Perry.

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by bdutton on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:13 pm

Froneck wrote:Hmmmm seems interesting that Cardinal will be at least 5 years before ready to have their first 2700 and the NRA making a 5 year deal to stay at Perry.
AllAces is 'Guessing' it won't be ready for 5 years.  Dane Hogel will know more about this than anyone but my best guess based on what I saw with the action pistol bays is that the range will be ready by next spring.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by DavidR on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:19 pm

AllAces wrote:I have not seen any projected dates for when Cardinal might complete the pistol ranges, or when they might hold their first 2700 match. My guess is that we probably won't shoot the first 2700 at Cardinal until 2018 at the earliest and I won't make a bet on that. I think it will be at least five years before they host their first 2700.
You asked this on the poll topic and Dan answered back if you missed it, projected date for first 2700 is spring 2017.
he  also  said construction has already begun. IMO this is not a government deal its being built by people with money who hired people who want to be paid so it should be much sooner than 5 years.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Danehogle on Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:55 pm

I have answered your question AllAces... Many times.
Projected dates for the two 50 point 50 meter ranges. Is June 1st 2017. That means first 2700 is projected  June 2017. 
It seems that Vender building #3 is sold out so now it has to be under roof before snow flies ( that's just a few months away) Cardinal is breaking ground as we speak. 
The OSTA has just signed a new 10 year deal and I am sure the SSSF and ATA are not to far behind. 
The pistol ranges will be built... The infrastructure is already their. 
Two of the three berms are done.

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by AllAces on Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:58 pm

Danehogle wrote:I have answered your question AllAces... Many times.
Projected dates for the two 50 point 50 meter ranges. Is June 1st 2017. That means first 2700 is projected  June 2017. 
It seems that Vender building #3 is sold out so now it has to be under roof before snow flies ( that's just a few months away) Cardinal is breaking ground as we speak. 
The OSTA has just signed a new 10 year deal and I am sure the SSSF and ATA are not to far behind. 
The pistol ranges will be built... The infrastructure is already their. 
Two of the three berms are done.
I must have missed the earlier answers.  Well, this is certainly good news. Any time we get another bullseye venue is good news.  Please keep us updated as to the pistol range progress, with photos if possible.
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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

Post by Froneck on Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:46 pm

Yes I'm also interested and will try to make as many matches they run there!!

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Re: Interesting notes, and we are staying at Camp Perry

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