Electronic Targets at Perry

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Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Kermit Workman on 7/27/2016, 10:20 pm

First topic message reminder :

I saw today(7-27) that electronic targets were set up on the Petreca Range for pistol shooters to try and pass along comments. Was there any mention of this before or at  Perry?
Somehow I missed it or it was a well kept secret.

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Aprilian on 8/18/2016, 10:40 am

Being new to BE, I can learn a new system without any real struggle.   But as a new shooter, I wonder about 2 things
1) since BE participation is still shrinking (just look at the average age on the line!) would a new shooter be hit with a large bill if they damage a target?
2) since BE will be a smaller user than other users of the target systems, will we be forced to use a system which changes the BE game significantly enough that people leave?

I don't think I'd favor adding extra time, it would drive scores up.   As it is done in some other sports, we will probably already see records differentiated by what set of rules they were achieved under, but more so if there is a time difference.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by SteveT on 8/18/2016, 10:46 am

Froneck wrote:From what I understand about the system of detecting the shot location is based on the measurement in the difference in time detected by the microphones. The speed of sound is not very fast when compared to light but the amount of time needed to travel inches is very small. Plus the difference in time using the speed of sound to detect a scratch 10 or a 9 is extreamly small. I can't see that over time something will not need calibration.
 As it is now there is definite proof of where the shot hit the target, yes the scorer and the shooter may not agree but it's easy for a Ref or a Jury to determine. Add to that anyone can check the time of a turning target with a simple stop watch but can it be determined if the lights and computer are in sync. ??
 Then there is the cost of the system, it was mentioned earlier the target will cost $4500 each, I don't know nor think  the computer and any other equipment requited such as a monitor for every shooter was included. Most of the ranges I shoot at have 20ish targets, that's $90,000 just for the targets.  How many matches have to be run just to pay for the system ??
 As I said there may be a time when the electronic targets are a welcomed up-grade but for now I think the turning target is the best way to go!

Electronic targets need calibration. I have never seen the calibration process, but my understanding is that it is part of the setup and does not take very long. There is a record of the shot, as long as the hole is in the width of the black tape behind the target. I know the systems used in international competitions have index marks so they can re-position the black tape and measure the position of the shot. I assume this is how they calibrate, but I have never seen it done.

Timing will be much more accurate and repeatable with electronics than what we have now with turning targets. The lights are operated by the same electronics that detect the shot so there is no problem detecting early and late hits. I have never seen technical details of the target systems, but as an electrical engineer, it is very simple to have a timing and sync signal to/from each target to verify every target is operating correctly and on the same time base. I have heard that the turning targets at Camp Perry can vary by 1/2 second or more from one string to another. I don't know if this is human variability in timing or inherent in the system, but any electronic system will be accurate and repeatable to a milli-second or better.

All the electronic targets can locate shots to 1/10th of a millimeter or better. It takes sounds about 3 micro seconds to move 1 mm. It is very easy for microcontrollers or FPGAs to measure time events 100 or even 1000 times faster than that. The electronics needed to perform this are quite cheap compared to the mechanical frame and structure needed to support everything.

The prices I've see always include everything needed including the display and controller for the firing point of each lane. The electronics needed are much simpler than a smartphone. Again, the box probably cost more than the electronics inside. 

I agree with you that the cost is prohibitive for most shooting clubs. I expect the cost will come down, but it will be a long time before we see electronic targets in most ranges.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by SteveT on 8/18/2016, 10:52 am

Aprilian wrote:will we be forced to use a system which changes the BE game significantly enough that people leave?

That is the $1M question. Will more people participate because the matches take less time and are more modern? or will more people leave complaining that it's not what it used to be.

I think the former, if we don't evolve we die, but maybe we already are? I hope not, but I am sure that there will be a lot more changes in the next 40 or 50 years that there were in the past.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by mikemyers on 8/18/2016, 11:13 am

Regarding them getting involved here:

Åge Bjøråsen wrote back "Thank you for the information.  We would prefer that our US distributor (CMP) could put some facts into this forum in order to avoid all the subjective assumptions.  CMP is already contacted regarding this."

Based on past experience, there is usually a good reason why companies may not wish to be directly involved in a forum.   Maybe it would be best if someone here (who knows far more than the little bit I know) send them a letter, and post their response.


My first, and only, exposure to targets that rotate has been with the Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club in South Florida.  The people who record the scores have found numerous errors in the math of people adding them up.  That would be eliminated if done electronically.

 the scoring system doesn't record shots before or after the allowable time, right?  Couldn't the goal of a target that turns be replicated by a "traffic light" that glowed either red or green, indicating the allowable time?  


.....I know so little about this - I hope I'm not intruding by posting here.  It started out just so I could understand the system.  Thanks for that information.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by jmdavis on 8/18/2016, 12:53 pm

In the NTI, I was being scored with a miss. I pulled out $3 and contested it. I got my $3 back and credit for two shots in the 9 ring. You can do that with paper targets. But if the computer fails to recognize your shot (and it does happen), the only choice is a reshoot or to accept the score as generated on the computer (if they will even allow a reshoot). It can be a big difference. 

I would much rather have addition errors that can be corrected when the scores are entered than missing scores that cost a shooter a shot.


That said, I will be shooting on the Konigsberg systems in Dec.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by dronning on 8/18/2016, 1:08 pm

mikemyers wrote:Regarding them getting involved here:
 CMP is already contacted regarding this."

 the scoring system doesn't record shots before or after the allowable time, right?  Couldn't the goal of a target that turns be replicated by a "traffic light" that glowed either red or green, indicating the allowable time?  
 Check out the CMP websites & forum to learn more.

Also red green lights are all ready part of the system.  They are NOT the same as a turning target.  If you use a dot, especially a 1" dot, you can not see the light through the optic without moving the gun or your focus off "target".  When you have shot turning targets enough you know exactly where to hold when the target turns.  In fact many shooters will start their triggers moving as the target is turning, and the shot may even go off before the target completely faces.

Think about this, see yourself standing at the line and go through these 2 scenario's.
1) With lights your mental focus must be on the light, which is outside of your sight picture, unless you move your sight picture (gun) so you can see the light, then you have to move your focus (or the gun) back to the target when the light turns on.  

2) Turning targets, you are completely focused on the target which stays in your sight picture as it turns.  

This change is a really big deal for many people.

With irons this doesn't apply (as much) because the light is in your peripheral vision, but your mental focus is still "off target" - on the light.

- Dave.

As far as math errors, it's your responsibility as the shooter to check math too.  Not all matches enter individual shots, they enter the scores and if you signed off you accept the score, bad math and all.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Froneck on 8/19/2016, 7:20 am

As far as I'm concerned I think the change to electronic targets is too soon! Just about everyone at the matches I attend also thinks so! Nothing more than some stuffed shirts that know nothing about shooting making changes without asking those that compete what they think! Just like moving up the start dates at Perry!! For those that think we must advance as technology improves my reply is that were are competing with guns that were developed at the turn of the century! Granted improvements have been made but the 1911 is still as it was 50+ years ago! I haven't seen many shoot near the record 2680 yet!!
 Yes there will be a time that electronics will be an acceptable and welcomed addition to the sport but I think a little more time is needed to make it work better and lower the cost! Every other electronic device has done the same from cell phones to computers.
 As to Bullseye dying, look at the matches, there are more Bullseye shooting than any other type. Sure something new that takes little skill and fun to blast away at targets at almost point blank range get the average joe out to shoot but they too dwindle down as they find those willing to put effort into getting better are winning the matches!  I see it at my club attendance is slowly getting smaller to those events too. Lots of reasons why the attendance of the matches are getting smaller but it has nothing to do with the target system and changing it to electronic targets now will not help and will probably make it worse!!

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by SteveT on 8/19/2016, 10:35 am

dronning wrote:Also red green lights are all ready part of the system.  They are NOT the same as a turning target.  If you use a dot, especially a 1" dot, you can not see the light through the optic without moving the gun or your focus off "target".  When you have shot turning targets enough you know exactly where to hold when the target turns.  In fact many shooters will start their triggers moving as the target is turning, and the shot may even go off before the target completely faces.

Think about this, see yourself standing at the line and go through these 2 scenario's.
1) With lights your mental focus must be on the light, which is outside of your sight picture, unless you move your sight picture (gun) so you can see the light, then you have to move your focus (or the gun) back to the target when the light turns on.  

2) Turning targets, you are completely focused on the target which stays in your sight picture as it turns.  

Every target on the line will have red/green lights. You may not be able to see the lights on your target, but there will be lots of lights in your peripheral vision. I have no doubt that having a whole row of lights change will make it very clear when to shoot and when time expires.

Turning targets are easier than lights or buzzers, but not (IMO) better. If you see a target, shoot it. If not, don't shoot. Plus with turning targets you get some warning and extra time as the targets turn. Sports and competition should be difficult. If it's not a challenge, what's the point?
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Froneck on 8/19/2016, 12:11 pm

As far as I'm concerned I think the change to electronic targets is too soon! Just about everyone at the matches I attend also thinks so! Nothing more than some stuffed shirts that know nothing about shooting making changes without asking those that compete what they think! Just like moving up the start dates at Perry!! For those that think we must advance as technology improves my reply is that were are competing with guns that were developed at the turn of the century! Granted improvements have been made but the 1911 is still as it was 50+ years ago! I haven't seen many shoot near the record 2680 yet!!
 Yes there will be a time that electronics will be an acceptable and welcomed addition to the sport but I think a little more time is needed to make it work better and lower the cost! Every other electronic device has done the same from cell phones to computers.
 As to Bullseye dying, look at the matches, there are more Bullseye shooting than any other type. Sure something new that takes little skill and fun to blast away at targets at almost point blank range get the average joe out to shoot but they too dwindle down as they find those willing to put effort into getting better are winning the matches!  I see it at my club attendance is slowly getting smaller to those events too. Lots of reasons why the attendance of the matches are getting smaller but it has nothing to do with the target system and changing it to electronic targets now will not help and will probably make it worse!!

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by AllAces on 8/19/2016, 1:54 pm

Eventually the national matches will be shot on electronic targets. When that happens it will be interesting to see if the same cluster of shooters are at the top of the scores as when shooting on paper, or will a new cluster of perhaps younger shooters emerge. Only the targets will tell.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by dronning on 8/19/2016, 2:05 pm

AllAces wrote:Eventually the national matches will be shot on electronic targets. When that happens it will be interesting to see if the same cluster of shooters are at the top of the scores as when shooting on paper, or will a new cluster of perhaps younger shooters emerge. Only the targets will tell.
The same shooters that were on top the week before eTargets go live will adapt quickly and still be on top after.  Great fundamentals and a strong mental game doesn't care if the targets turn or a light comes on.

- Dave
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Jack H on 8/19/2016, 2:16 pm

That might be true for top shooters.  For us lesser types, errant hits on a plastic frame just seems different, and maybe more discouraging, than if on paper.  And we I think like to shoot at a real target that we can save and brag about.  On e-targets we shoot at vapors.  I do not think vapor shooting will draw many "modern" shooters.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by AllAces on 8/19/2016, 2:43 pm

Jack H wrote:That might be true for top shooters.  For us lesser types, errant hits on a plastic frame just seems different, and maybe more discouraging, than if on paper.  And we I think like to shoot at a real target that we can save and brag about.  On e-targets we shoot at vapors.  I do not think vapor shooting will draw many "modern" shooters.
Oh, the novelty of shooting on e-targets will draw lots of shooters, but your are correct, having those large targets to bring home from Perry will be missed (no pun intended). The first target I cleaned at Perry, my wife had framed and it hangs proudly in my man cave.  Hard to frame a vapor target. I suppose you could upload an iphone photo of the computer screen.  I suppose cleaned vapor targets will become much like all those transparent ten pound bass we catch.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by SteveT on 8/19/2016, 3:28 pm

If it's like the e-targets in the airgun range you get a printout with an image of each 10 shots on a target with scores. Not the same as a big target with holes in it, but a record.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by w4ti on 8/19/2016, 10:07 pm

I've never shot on an electric target, but I have noticed in the videos of those who do something worth mentioning: if the focus is supposed to be on the front sight, then why is it that you watch 25M Rapid Fire or 25M Sport Pistol that the contestant looks at their lowered pistol for a second or two, but then stares straight ahead *before the lift*, presumably at the target?

Is this because they are so good that their body mechanics make it so that if they make the right motion that they instead can stare at the target (hard focus) with the pistol sights in soft focus?

Just wondering what they are doing- sorry if this doesn't lend itself to this discussion.

Best,
Chase

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by dronning on 8/20/2016, 12:47 am

w4ti wrote:I've never shot on an electric target, but I have noticed in the videos of those who do something worth mentioning: if the focus is supposed to be on the front sight, then why is it that you watch 25M Rapid Fire or 25M Sport Pistol that the contestant looks at their lowered pistol for a second or two, but then stares straight ahead *before the lift*, presumably at the target?

Is this because they are so good that their body mechanics make it so that if they make the right motion that they instead can stare at the target (hard focus) with the pistol sights in soft focus?

Just wondering what they are doing- sorry if this doesn't lend itself to this discussion.

Best,
Chase
They are focusing on sight alignment so when they do the lift their sights are aligned when the gun comes up to their sight picture.  Hope that makes sense. 
-Dave
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Jack H on 8/20/2016, 2:04 am

w4ti wrote:I've never shot on an electric target, but I have noticed in the videos of those who do something worth mentioning: if the focus is supposed to be on the front sight, then why is it that you watch 25M Rapid Fire or 25M Sport Pistol that the contestant looks at their lowered pistol for a second or two, but then stares straight ahead *before the lift*, presumably at the target?

Is this because they are so good that their body mechanics make it so that if they make the right motion that they instead can stare at the target (hard focus) with the pistol sights in soft focus?

Just wondering what they are doing- sorry if this doesn't lend itself to this discussion.

Best,
Chase

The "start" lights are on the target.  They raise and sights are 99.9% aligned by the previous preparations.
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Froneck on 8/20/2016, 7:02 am

Eventually electronic targets will happen but the top group especially the Army will still dominate simply because they have and can practice on electronic targets! I doubt there will be many of the College International shooters at Perry, they have to pay to enter since it's not an International event. Simply put those that are on the top are there because they were willing to spend the time and effort to be at the top! All it will do is make it harder for those at the top to continue competing since they will have to locate clubs that offer electronic target matches!!
 As to the younger shooters now shooting bullseye they will have the same learning curve. All the early change will do is create two type of events because only the large clubs can afford to install electronic targets and the smaller clubs will continue with turning targets!
 Simply put it's a game changer and not one that will help the sport at this time. All the hoopla about IDPA shooting getting so many shooters requires more work and a week to set up the range. Plus each shooter has an attendee standing next to him requiring more helpers! The IDPA match is labor intensive so the baloney about making it simpler is not going to increase attendance. Clubs are now struggling with help and funds adding a huge cost to continue Bullseye and might cause many clubs to drop Bullseye matches completely!
 Changes are usually made to improve things! I wonder what golfers will say if they were forced in front of an electronic screen and play championship golf?? What's next? Hunting on electronic targets?? Put the money in the slot to cover license fees and travel expense. Shoot at an image of some exotic game and if you hit the mark a frozen package on farm raised exotic game meat drops out??
 If it's not broken Don't fix it! Nothing wrong with turning targets!! Only our politicians fix things that are working great and we all know how that turns out!
 Lots of thing can be done to get shooter out to matches, electronic targets is NOT one of them!!

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by dronning on 8/20/2016, 11:14 am

1st I'll preface this with I don't want eTargets, because I enjoy the scoring camaraderie.

IMHO:
1) Turning verses non-turning - I don't care, I'll adapt.  Even if I have to shoot both.
2) Those that have eTargets to practice on have an advantage, I call BS.  EZ to simulate.
3) eTargets will cost more for a range - yes, unless there is a big insurance break (unknown)
3a) If eTargets are adopted as the standard small ranges will quit holding matches, I call BS there are still matches held on stationary paper targets.
4) Will eTargets draw new shooters, ??, but it will keep some that can no longer walk down to score.
5) Will eTargets loose shooters, if they do pretty petty, their loss.
6) Can both eTargets and turning coexist in our sport, yes.  Turning and stationary did for a while.
7) Turning targets work perfect - NOT, especially if you were shooting on range 4 at Perry this year.  At least every other match I attend there are range problems.

I for one am glad to see CMP involved and debugging eTargets at Talladega.  If the CMP weren't it really would be a mess if they decided to install them at Perry.

But I still prefer paper.

- Dave
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Electronic Targets

Post by mbmshooter on 8/22/2016, 7:32 pm

I was disappointed a couple of years ago when I found out that a couple of electronic targets had been set up on the function range and I didn't find out until after the NTT.  I made a point of going to try out the pistol targets provided by CMP.  After hearing the many boos from Zins and the many yeas from Zurek, I felt I needed to find out for myself.
Unlike Brian who complains about not being able to aim at the "X", I haven't been able to see the "X" for quite a few years.  I actually found it easier to just concentrate on the front sight and my trigger control while having just a black circle to aim at.  I only fired 20 or so rounds but would like to give these targets more of a chance.

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by mikemyers on 8/23/2016, 12:39 pm

Posting a reply sent to me in email:
 
Thank you for your interest in our target systems and how they function. I have seen your comments on the forums, as well as comments from others, and would like to know that I am available to answer any questions that you have concerning our systems or our electronic ranges.
 
Thanks,
 
Bryan
 
 
Bryan Parris
Range Logistics Specialist
CMP Targets
Civilian Marksmanship Program

256-835-8455 x-421
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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

Post by Froneck on 8/26/2016, 12:31 pm

I hope they listen to shooters, I don't think the electronics have anything to add over turning targets. I'm sure if they were required at local CMP matches or State Championships and Regionals many clubs would not run the match. Simply put it's too expensive. As to matches that still run using a buzzer or whistle I know of no club running a match in my state or surrounding states because they all added turning targets because many would not attend! If somehow a new club opted to run a match without turning targets I will not attend and know many others that feel the same way. Every whistle or buzzer match I've shot had many shots fired before and after the whistle. I've never seen anyone have points removed because of it!
 Yes the Electronic Targets will make the match run faster as there is no need to change targets or score but I welcome the delay between strings, it allows for some rest. The time required to shoot a 900 is just about perfect. I hate those matches that rush the shooter and Perry has been the worst offender! Years ago I really liked shooting on Range 4 at Perry, that guy in charge never rushed anyone and it was always the last range to complete the 900 per relay! Now it breaks down often due to neglect not the system. I can foresee Perry trying to complete all 3 relays before lunch if Electronic Targets were used!
 My club ran matches for years without a single range alibi, all the matches I shot before Perry this year and after did not have any range alibis, getting the turning mechanism working properly should be a prerequisite to running a match however some tightening of bolts and a little maintenance at those matches that did have a malfunction will be nothing if electronics are not maintained and break down during a match!

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Re: Electronic Targets at Perry

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