alittle gun humor....

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alittle gun humor....

Post by Paper-Puncher on 1/29/2012, 7:35 pm

was a the range today..doin my normal .22 and .45 stuff......I also put 50rds thru my carry G19....well while I was was there a local P.D. deptment was doin some yearly qualifying....apparently a few of the officers saw me shooting my 1911 @ 25yds then doing some defensive pratice with my G19.......when I was done and headin for the coffee pot one of the officer stopped me and asked what county I lived in......I replied and told him then asked why....his repy was good not my county ..I dont want to get in a gun fight with you.......we had a good laugh a cup of coffee and he was interested in bullseye shooting so I filled him in on how to get started......we have plans on shootin together next sunday........

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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by Al on 1/30/2012, 3:20 pm

The lack of participation by our local law enforcement has always amazed me. While their course of fire is very different from competitive bullseye, the basic trigger and sights fundamentals transfer over to any shooting discipline. One would think a LEO would work on their shooting skills as they are the one's most often in danger's way.

The club I belong to has a new 50 meter indoor range, the only one within 700-900 miles. The local PD, HP, and Sheriff's dept use the range for qualifying...and that's it. I have yet to see any of the local LEO's at centerfire pistol night (I'm the RO). While I don't presume to know all of them, I would be able to tell the difference between the regulars and newcomers. Then at the BS sessions, after shooting, finding out what they did for a living. BTW, pistol night is not restricted to BE shooters. Truth be told, most of the shooters are just there to enjoy shooting their short guns.

I don't expect everyone to love my shooting discipline the way I do. But, I can't understand anyone not loving to get out & just move their triggers.

Maybe some of our list, who travel in law enforcement circles, can chime in and help explain why so many fellow LEO's don't share our passion for the sport and share ideas how they increased participation.

Enough rambling, FWIW

Al

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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by DavidR on 1/30/2012, 3:30 pm

Many cops cant shoot worth a crap, ive witnessed them at the range patting each other on the back for keeping two rounds in the black at 15feet on a human sized target. I routinely see the news where they shoot a full clip, 15-19 rounds and hit no one. They should be held to a much higher standard IMO
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by scrum derringer on 1/30/2012, 11:20 pm

Al wrote:
Maybe some of our list, who travel in law enforcement circles, can chime in and help explain why so many fellow LEO's don't share our passion for the sport and share ideas how they increased participation.

I can tell you why, ....money!

This is my second indoor season of bullseye that another department, in the county that I work i, puts on. I believe that the league started in thelate 40's after the war. I've been told that back in the day most of the local juristictions had multipal teams, as did my department. Now a days when budgets are tight, participants , like me, have to supply their own ammo and mostlikley a gun conducive to bullseye (sig p226 dak, not the best), whereas back in the day ammo was a plenty and everyone carried revolvers.

I became aware of bullseye through speaking with the host dept's LT. 2 years ago after being involved in an officer involved shooting. Due to the stress and frustration from that, I have used this sport as personal ''therapy'' as I call it, though it can be as frustrating as golf. In the summer of that same year, the host dept was involved in an officer involved shooting resulting in two officers receiving gunshot wounds, both I believe have returned to work. This host dept offers its officers and reserve officers the oppertunity to participate in this league -for free and on duty time, and they even provide the ammo! The sad thing is that there is still poor turnout for it.

My dept is always cash strapped and we only shot 3 times last year.....we had two officer involved shootings in 10 months between 2009 and 2010, and that's all we get is 3 training shoots. I had to pull teeth to try and get others to participate in the bullseye league, only got one and he is the one that got me into reloading. Though this style of shooting is outdated for defensive/offensive pistol shooting, i have found that the trigger fundamentals and sight alignament are there and are at the core of shooting. I wasn't, and still am not the greatest shot, but I have seen leaps and bounds improvement of work shooting due to bullseye shooting. I wish there would be more interest in this like there use to be, cause a little departamental competition is good! I hope to try and shoot in this years, if there is another, state union pistol shoot, (which also use to be big) and hopefully there will be a renewed intersest.

As for the above comment of cops can't shoot worth a crap, that might be true for some, but I've never seen a NRA bullseye target that all unexpectedly pulls out a gun and shoots at you first, wanting to take you away from your family and everything you have worked for. When ever I stand in one spot, aim, and shoot at a stationary bullseye target, at a known distance, I never worry about the legal ramifications, the stress ramifications, and it will never be judged (but scored). So unless you shoot bad guys everyday, one should not assume its easy.
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by Rob Kovach on 1/30/2012, 11:54 pm

My wife iterates that same point everytime I leave the house with my gun box. She doesn't understand why I cant shoot all 10's on a piece of paper that isn't moving and doesn't shoot back.
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by Paper-Puncher on 1/31/2012, 12:01 am

I've shot IDPA with a few officers and a game warden....they did pretty well...I got to the high sharp shooter level with the revolver and expert with the service pistol and 1911....the game warden I shot with was a 4 gun master.....and was something to see when he shot the wheel gun.....I tend to shoot my carry guns at least 1 x a month ...after I get done shooting BE stuff and if the range is empty ..I go into the small range and lock the door behind me....and go thru a whole host of things ....quick draw 1 from the hip -then come to full draw double tap the head ......double taps while retreating....followed by strong hand weak hand ....and el-capitan drills.. mag changes and malfunction clearing...99% of my shoots stay in the A or zero down zone and target distance is from 10-21 ft....I just hope I never need to use this skills on anything but paper.....I am a big proponet for concealed carry and take it very seriously...I was once confronted by a man with a razor knife at a gas pump....I draw my weapon ...he dropped the knife turned tail and ran....hopefully he learned a lesson....glad I didnt need to shoot him ...but its a situation I never want to repeat...I can understand how officers can miss during a shoot out...the adrenaline really gets to flowing ..0-100mph in the blink of an eye...hopefully my once in a life time has come and gone......pratice as often as possible....carry everywhere legal....you just never know when Mr dirt bag is gonna show up...@ 6'-1'' , 230 lbs with a 35 inch waiste and a 48'' chest I never figured i'd be seen as a easy pickin...maybe its the grey in the beard and the lack of hair...makes um think I'm a old man...

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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by BE Mike on 1/31/2012, 9:41 am

DavidR wrote:Many cops cant shoot worth a crap, ive witnessed them at the range patting each other on the back for keeping two rounds in the black at 15feet on a human sized target. I routinely see the news where they shoot a full clip, 15-19 rounds and hit no one. They should be held to a much higher standard IMO
It's all about training. When departments authorize the time and money to train, officers will be proficient. Most LEO's don't find bullseye shooting relevant to their job. Most LEO's work overtime, as well as, second and third jobs to make ends meet. That leaves them little time or money to equip themselves and train for competitive shooting. There is also the ego. Anyone who has shot bullseye for any length of time soon learns that he has to put his ego aside. He quickly learns that for a long time, he will loose many more matches than he wins. Many officers can't deal with that. All that being said, I've seen some agencies that had a very high level of firearms proficiency amongst the rank and file. These agencies required a high level of proficiency and ran qualification training every three months and provided ammunition for individual practice. I also have seen, even in departments where there is little emphasis on firearms training, when individual officers take an interest in their own firearms proficiency, they usually become very good. LEO's are just like everybody else. The average civilian handgun owner can't shoot worth a hoot because he doesn't train. The same goes with cops. They have the same potential as anyone else.
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by DavidR on 1/31/2012, 9:56 am

As for the
above comment of cops can't shoot worth a crap, that might be true for
some, but I've never seen a NRA bullseye target that all unexpectedly
pulls out a gun and shoots at you first, wanting to take you away from
your family and everything you have worked for. When ever I stand in one
spot, aim, and shoot at a stationary bullseye target, at a known
distance, I never worry about the legal ramifications, the stress
ramifications, and it will never be judged (but scored). So unless you
shoot bad guys everyday, one should not assume its easy.

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First i said "Many" not "ALL" which i know from having many police as friends is sadly a true fact. And i never said shooting at someone that is shooting back was "EASY". What i did say is that IMO the police should be held to a higher level of training which i think should be a requirement for any person civilian or police that is allowed to carry a gun in and among the public. Im not downing the individual officers but something needs to change to have the people who we hire to protect to be better prepared not only for the people they are protecting but themselves as well.
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by Al on 1/31/2012, 3:58 pm

Great comments guys. It's helping me come to some type of understanding why there isn't more LEO participation.

I have a couple questions, and I'm not trying to take a poke at anyone, just trying to understand. Those who read this list are already involved in BE so I realize I'm "preaching to the choir" so to speak.

First: I'm wondering why those LEO's who would most benefit from practice would not do so unless being paid for it? No one has ever paid me to pursue my shooting passions. If I wanted to shoot more (averaging 10,000-20,000 rds/year for the last 11 years), I had to learn to cast bullets rather than buying. The income factor I would dispute. I've never made anything close to
big money, some of those years were borderline poverty level, but I also chose to not have cable tv or high speed internet
(until 2 yrs ago) and still managed to accumulate weapons that far exceed my
capabilities.

I started in shooting target archery 35 years ago and about 11 years ago transitioned to Bullseye. In all that time I've never expected or received anything in payment other than the thrill of executing the perfect shot.

Second: I'm also in complete agreement about BE not being a good practice for a defensive shooting situation. What it is (to me) is the best training I know of to perfect my trigger control. This transitions to all shooting sports and vocations involving trigger control. From a personal perspective, my passions are Bullseye and Long Range Prairie dog shooting, and just starting some Hi Power. I have found that I do not have as high a number of missed shots I used to have in the beginning of the "Pasture Rat" shooting season. My "doggin rifles" have 2 oz to 1# triggers. I believe this accuracy improvement is due to the "trigger time" spent in the winter months shooting BE.

Enough rambling, I appreciate the insights from the LEO's that have contributed.

FWIW

Al

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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by DavidR on 1/31/2012, 4:10 pm

It would seem to me, that if my job might require me to engage in gun battle with a outlaw (and mine does)that i would want to be the best shot i could be weither some employer is paying me to learn or not. I carry a gun everyday, and i can hit what i shoot at, It would be nice if all police officers could say the same.
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by Jack H on 1/31/2012, 4:52 pm

It puzzles me how a department or municipality often does not require their officers to meet reasonable requirements. You would think it to be a priority to know their LEO can shoot with skill under stress. Maybe it is too mercenary to be skilled at shooting. You know, not politically correct.

Or we can support the mayors boat payments - ha ha
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by BE Mike on 2/1/2012, 8:41 am

I suppose part of the puzzle as to why so many departments don't emphasize firearms training is the cost in man hours and ammunition. With our "hopes for change" dashed in the past three years, budgets don't allow the hiring of enough new officers and the price of ammo has gone through the roof.

Civilians who carry on a daily basis are probably, as a whole, less proficient than LEO's with their handguns. Many states don't really have a meaningful proficiency test to obtain a license to carry. Civilians, for the most part, aren't motivated to train and substantially improve their skill level.

Bullseye pistol shooters who stay in the sport, are tenacious and enjoy the challenge. They make sacrifices in time and money, learning to shoot and reload. They are a different breed than the average handgun owner. If every handgun owner had these traits, bullseye pistol shooting would be growing instead of declining. One can't fairly compare bullseye shooters with LEO's or run-of-the-mill civilian handgun owners. As I previously stated, there are LEO's who take an interest in becoming proficient in the use of firearms. There are civilians who daily carry, who also take an interest in improving their skill level. Unfortunately both groups are in the minority.

Preparing oneself to use a firearm in a self-defense situation requires a lot more than the skills one learns in bullseye pistol shooting, although the skills one learns in the sport are a very good beginning.
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Re: alittle gun humor....

Post by Al on 2/1/2012, 10:21 am

Unfortunately both groups are in the minority.

Regrettably I think you're spot on Mike. It's sad watching RIT's (Rambo's In Training) squander 100's of factory rounds in spraying practice. While I realize they have the enjoyment factor, its hard to see the waste of training time and ammo. You look at the targets that have had dozens of rounds launched at them and see 1 or 2 in the black and 6 or so on the paper.
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