Camp Perry or Cardinal Center for Nationals

The NRA shooting director has said from his inquiry's that most precision pistol (bullseye) shooters want the Nationals for our sport to stay as they are at Camp Perry, since we have the largest bullseye member base of active shooters in the country I thought he would like to see if that holds true here as well.  Easy question, If it was up to you and the Cardinal center has the full capabilities to host the venue as good or better than Camp Perry where would the 2017 and on NRA Precision Pistol Nationals be held?
Camp Perry as it has been or the new Cardinal shooting sports center, both are in Ohio.

There should be an option for "Doesn't matter to me"

SteveT wrote:There should be an option for "Doesn't matter to me"

+1

Hey Garth,
+2

It's difficult to consider moving from Perry, so much history it's inspiring to walk the same grounds and shoot the same conditions they have for nearly 110 years.

That being said, the young ones today are the ME generation.  If there's a challenge involved they move to another game unless it involves the favorite video game (present company excluded of course) or unless they are guaranteed a participation ribbon.  It takes a rare young person to tackle the discipline required to really shoot bullseye well.

I would attend either venue.  I would lean more towards Perry than Cardinal from a historical perspective.  But, it depends on vacation time and calender whether I go or not.  Not geography.

Al

Garth
PS: ran some of the Zero 200 SWC through the ransom last night. 4.0 Clays went into 1 3/4" including the last round flier.  And this through the Springfield, not bad for 69,000 rounds.  The new Caspian wouldn't do better than 2 1/4",same load with the fliers.  Who needs jacketed???
Al

I think most here know my feelings on this subject.
If there are any questions about cardinal than anyone wants to know, ask. I will either know the answer, or know who can answer..

I won't be voting until I see the finished range.

SteveT wrote:There should be an option for "Doesn't matter to me"

option added.

bdutton wrote:I won't be voting until I see the finished range.

This poll is if the Cardinal center has the full capability to host the nationals as good or better than Camp Perry.

and Perry? if it's as good or better than Cardinal center will be?

Doesn't matter to me... but seriously though. If cardinal has all this money and is so great why are they installing paper targets? Be a state of the art facility and get some electronic targets installed.

When's the next scheduled cardinal Bullseye match? Lemme shoot there then ask me. All this fluff is just talk. 

Don't leave me with blueballs...

Bullseye shooters seem to be an interesting lot. Every school district in the country seems to have individual facilities for various sports... football fields for football games, baseball fields for baseball games, softball fields for softball games... why can't they just put temporary fences at a shorter distance for the softballers? Is it okay to agree that different sports have different needs and that different participants in those sports have different ways to gauge success?

Yet year after year we come en mass (albeit a dwindling mass) to an old military rifle range to shoot the granddaddy of all pistol sports. Yes, it's full of shooting history of all sorts. It's a tremendous place to visit and to shoot. It's an *experience.* It is not, however, a venue to rightfully test precision marksmanship. Quite frankly, I have genuine questions about the precision of the range itself... from the undulating ground to the quite mobile wooden benches to the target systems that are older than any of us reading or writing here today.

And lets face it, it is also a logistical nightmare. Any first time shooter will attest to the fact that having to fill out forms for the ONG, then to be sent to the CMP line to handle check-in for their matches... but wait, do it again the next day at the NRA building halfway across base. Aren't registered for any CMP matches but want to register at the NRA? Go over to the CMP building because you need to check-in with the ONG. Seriously? Can't all the entities just get along and make it easy for the competitor who is, after all, the reason anyone is there to process check-ins?

But wait, there's more. Now there's a guy who's willing to spend money out of his own pocket (rumored over $3MM) for the good of shooting sports. He owns one of the largest shooting facilities in the world (quite a bit larger than the ranges at Camp Perry) and he's expanding it to be able to host matches for the likes of Bullseye shooters. Regardless of a discussion about National Matches, I am, as a shooter and lover of the shooting sports, thrilled to be thought of in such high regard.

Maybe it's time to let awesome history be just that... history. And maybe it's time to embrace what is truly a gift to the shooting sports world, a massive venue built to run matches the likes of which most of us have never experienced. That, folks, is the future. As Denny Dennis L Willing said on a post elsewhere on a forum, "History is not everything. History can be made wherever you might be."

Sorry for the lengthy post but it's time to take off those shooting blinders and look beyond the front sight. Those of us who've been in a clinic hosted by Brian Zins might get into some trouble looking that far downrange but I think he'd agree it's okay this time.

cjon600 wrote:Doesn't matter to me... but seriously though. If cardinal has all this money and is so great why are they installing paper targets? Be a state of the art facility and get some electronic targets installed.

When's the next scheduled cardinal Bullseye match? Lemme shoot there then ask me. All this fluff is just talk. 

Don't leave me with blueballs...

My understanding is that conduit will be put in place on the Cardinal pistol ranges to accommodate an upgrade to electronic targets if and when that becomes the normal match equipment in the sport. Although I've only been shooting bullseye matches for four years or so, I have yet to attend a match that uses electronic targets in an outdoor venue. I have shot air pistol indoors with electronic targets. I can't speak on behalf of the range or personnel involved in the construction but am sharing the answer I received when I asked a similar question.

I just recently caught the air pistol disease at Perry this year.  I fear it is a life-long condition:-)
I literally shot on the fantastic air pistol/rifle range that CMP built at Perry every day but one.  On several days I went back two and even three times.  It is a phenomenal facility!  It is worth going to Perry just to shoot at the Gary Anderson facility!

I was so impressed with air pistol I am trying to get a range setup at UW-Eau Claire.

Chip

I think the history and nostalgia behind Camp Perry is fantastic. However, sloshing around in reconstituted swine escrement and water logging thousands of dollars worth of pistols and gear is unacceptable. 
There is talk that the Ohio National Guard won't build a permanent range for bullseye because Camp Perry is a military training base. I don't buy that for one second, look at the permanant air gun range and the proposed electronic rifle targets. The military also shoots and trains with pistols, as a machine gunner in the Marine Corps I was issued an M9 and had to train and qualify with it the same as the M16.
A permanent bullseye range would benefit competitors, NRA, CMP, ONG, everyone. That will never happen because currently the ONG has a monopoly on the National Championships and have no incentive to improve. The Cardinal Shooting Center will create a competitive market that stands to benefit shooters and the NRA.

To the west of Viale range is a plot of land that had been occupied by warehouses.  Taking a quick look on Google earth, this area could be used to build a covered firing point range out to 100 yards and up to 150 places maybe more. With e-targets, this could be used for pistol and smallbore with a day or two for range changes. There may be more relays, but with e-targets the scoring delays are minimized.

Wobbley wrote:To the west of Viale range is a plot of land that had been occupied by warehouses.  Taking a quick look on Google earth, this area could be used to build a covered firing point range out to 100 yards and up to 150 places maybe more. With e-targets, this could be used for pistol and smallbore with a day or two for range changes. There may be more relays, but with e-targets the scoring delays are minimized.

However, that land is not for sale.  As I understand it, the OHNG has first right of refusal to purchase on portions of that land but would only use it for a safety zone when firing high power rifle. That land is not part of Camp Perry.

james r chapman wrote:and Perry? if it's as good or better than Cardinal center will be?

That's a dream that will never happen, camp perry at best will continue with its wore out equipment till it cant be cobbled back together, My first trip to CP was in 2001, range broke down then and every year since, same dialog, it will all get fixed next year....

DavidR wrote:

james r chapman wrote:and Perry? if it's as good or better than Cardinal center will be?

That's a dream that will never happen, camp perry at best will continue with its wore out equipment till it cant be cobbled back together, My first trip to CP was in 2001, range broke down then and every year since, same dialog, it will all get fixed next year....

Let's face the obvious. CMP is a major player in deciding what happens at Camp Perry. CMP is a 'supplier' of electronic targets. The existing system of turning targets will never be replaced with a new turning target system. Repairs (minimal) may be made but there will NOT be a new system as it would last too long for the 'master plan'.

Bruce

DavidR wrote:... and the Cardinal center has the full capabilities to host the venue...

Does this vote assume that Cardinal will also host the CMP matches (EIC Service Pistol, EIC .22) also?

Does it assume that the vendors will want to leave Camp Perry and go to Cardinal? If there Highpower and CMP pistol remain at Perry, where will the vendors go?

I don't think that CMP Pistol is going to leave Camp Perry.

Cardinal can host the CMP events if the CMP wishes...

Is cardinal building a 400+ point range? I've not heard the details.

Well James, the design is for 300 bullseye points on four ranges. Two 50 point, 50 meter ranges. Two 100 point, 100 meter ranges. Ranges are separated by concrete walls. 
If your on Facebook, I have posted the CAD drawings and will again. 
If anyone would like to see them, email me at danehogle@yahoo.com

Yeah, please do, I've looked around Facebook and can't find it.

What about the lodging at Cardinal, do they have a similar setup with huts?