Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

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Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by mpolans on 8/2/2016, 3:32 pm

So here's a strange one. Shooting .22 indoor at 25 yards, I've frequently had tighter groups in timed and rapid fire than in slow fire. I generally tend to shoot my timed fire at almost the same speed as the rapid fire strings...I'm not good at judging timing so I just shoot when the sights or dot look good. I generally shoot in the 270-280 range. Any thoughts on improving things?

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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by Tim:H11 on 8/2/2016, 3:40 pm

Stop thinking during slow fire? In slow fire we can hold too long and over think our shot because we have all the time in the world. So we over do it causing mistakes to be made. That's been my problem at least.
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by Jack H on 8/2/2016, 4:05 pm

Your answer is within your own post.

"Any thoughts on improving things?"

In SF, stop thinking that.
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by fc60 on 8/2/2016, 4:11 pm

Greetings,

I have a turning target mechanism that has a three second face. I used it to practice slow fire at 25 yards. The idea was to settle in and break the shot within three seconds. It did work, as I soon fired a 2605 and 2607, the peak of my career.

The goal is to condition your sub conscious thought. When the eye aligns the sights in the correct place on the target, the brain sends a signal to the trigger finger. Some refer to it as rote rehearsal.

Best wishes on your slow fire quest.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by ChipEck on 8/2/2016, 5:47 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

I have a turning target mechanism that has a three second face. I used it to practice slow fire at 25 yards. The idea was to settle in and break the shot within three seconds. It did work, as I soon fired a 2605 and 2607, the peak of my career.

The goal is to condition your sub conscious thought. When the eye aligns the sights in the correct place on the target, the brain sends a signal to the trigger finger. Some refer to it as rote rehearsal.

Best wishes on your slow fire quest.

Cheers,

Dave
Good tip.
Chip
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/2/2016, 5:58 pm

My best groups have  almost always been rapid fire. I believe its because I'm focused on keeping the trigger moving and in rapid fire you don't have time to make it too pretty like in timed fire which more often than not doesn't turn out as pretty Smile
First shot is typically hardest shot for sustained fire. The other 4 just follow a bit easier.
Jon
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by jglenn21 on 8/2/2016, 6:49 pm

get the bullseye timer phone app... It has 2 and 4 second drills where you have to get the shot off in those time frames... really good practice for long and short line
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by SMBeyer on 8/2/2016, 8:28 pm

For me the way I picked up points in slowfire was by being diligent with putting the gun down.  Every time something is not right, put the gun down.

Scott
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by DavidR on 8/3/2016, 9:44 am

The more time you have to think the harder it is to shoot a good shot.
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/3/2016, 10:03 am

SMBeyer wrote:For me the way I picked up points in slowfire was by being diligent with putting the gun down.  Every time something is not right, put the gun down.

Scott
+1

Good SF comes from hard work. Discipline is part of that battle. 
Jon
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by dronning on 8/3/2016, 10:05 am

While my sustained fire scores were usually 96+ my slow fire scores were in the 70's for a long time.  During a match when I had just cleaned a rapid fire target,  I was so frustrated with my slow fire I had to try something so I shot the next slow fire like it was timed and didn't scope it between mags, I shot a 91.  It was the first time I was in the 90's in SF since before my carpal tunnel surgery last year.  I finally realized if I don't break my slow fire shot within 3 seconds of settling more often than not it's an 8 or worse.  

Putting the gun down when it isn't there is my #1 challenge now.

- Dave


Last edited by dronning on 8/3/2016, 10:10 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity)
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by Ghillieman on 8/3/2016, 1:00 pm

I'm right there with you on the 50 yard targets.
One thing I have noticed is that my best 50 yard scores were the easiest targets to shoot. Just bring the gun up and pull the trigger, easier said than done.
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by jmdavis on 8/3/2016, 1:19 pm

Article about Rob Mango that addresses the issue. 

https://armyreservemarksman.info/2014/01/08/rob-mango-the-flow-of-shooting/
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by SMBeyer on 8/3/2016, 10:30 pm

The other thing that will get you is your attitude.  Correct attitude is "I can shoot a 10"  not "don't put one in the white, don't put one in the white!"
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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by SmokinNJokin on 8/3/2016, 11:02 pm

I have been struggling lately with the short line as well - just the opposite of your problem, really - consistently shoot mid 90's slow fire with my .45 and iron sights and then I will bomb sustained with low 90s or even high 80's.

The article by MSG Mango was very good - I am convinced my T+R problems are mental. I shoot 97-100s all day in practice but as soon as there is some pressure I am tripping all over myself (mentally) over-analyzing and getting my groove interrupted when little things don't go right - like taking too long to break the first shot.

I hate reading when experts and below give shooting advice - I'm not doing that, just relaying what the good shooters have said. Trusting your shot process and then just getting into the zone and relying on muscle memory seems to be the key to good sustained scores.

SM Beyer nailed it as well - focusing on the negative is a cancer that will ruin a good string. You shoot 10's in practice, you can do it in a match!

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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by mpolans on 8/3/2016, 11:36 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:My best groups have  almost always been rapid fire. I believe its because I'm focused on keeping the trigger moving and in rapid fire you don't have time to make it too pretty like in timed fire which more often than not doesn't turn out as pretty Smile
First shot is typically hardest shot for sustained fire. The other 4 just follow a bit easier.
Jon
That sounds familiar.  I tend to work on making my first shot dead on, then the rest just happen as the sights come back and align on target.  I try to be diligent about putting the gun down and starting over if the shot isn't going to happen.  Previously, when shooting air pistol, I would try to force it, with predictably ugly results.  Though I'm wondering if all the aborted shots and taking the extra time are working against me by tiring my arm out.

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Re: Tighter Groups in Timed and Rapid vs Slow?

Post by Ghillieman on 8/4/2016, 2:43 am

JMDavis, thanks for sharing that article from Mango.
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