I need 45 coaching.

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I need 45 coaching.

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:58 pm

WHY!? Why can't I shoot the 45 any better than what I'm currently doing? At 25 yards all I got is low maybe mid 90's. Timed fire. In rapid fire I can't get all 5 off before the buzzer. I'm one shot late. Sometimes right on the buzzer. And then the groups are worse. I know sight alignment and sight picture, and trigger control. I have great scores with the 22. But why does the 45 seem so uncontrollable!? I went through 70 rounds an hour ago. All timed fire. Couldn't do better than a 96. Mostly an average of 95. It's so very frustrating to be used to good scores and groups with my other guns and things tank with the 45. pale

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by LenV on Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:19 pm

I am an advocate of training with a pistol that actually has recoil. You will soon realize what a wimpy thing the 45 is and your scores will go up. This method will not work for everyone. Laughing Laughing

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by LenV on Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:32 pm

In a more serious tone. I recently posted on a different subject (NPA) how important (to me) a good lockup on my elbow is in sustained fire. I am a big guy but I still lock my elbow when I fire the .45. I know there is a difference of opinion out there with some shooters but without a good lockup and  combined with a positive trigger pressure my timed and rapid fire scores tank. You might be one of those that can recover without it but your Black powder and .22 matches have not been ideal training for recovery. Give it a try if you are not doing so already.

Len

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by mspingeld on Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:34 pm

Why are you so hard on yourself? 95 is a master score. Practice, analyze your performance. Dry fire. Shoot matches. Analyze your performance. Focus on what you did right. List ideas on how you can do better. Talk to the masters on the line. Be patient. Seems to me like you're doing pretty well. Try not to get frustrated. Remember, this is supposed to be fun. (I'm guilty of that myself)

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Aug 03, 2016 10:53 pm

95% is master. And 95% of 300 is 285. And 285 boils down to 97 on both the timed and rapid fire targets and a 91 on the slow fire target. For me I can hold that and then some with the 22. In black powder I'm a high master and hold one of three legs needed for distinguished high master. It's just frustrating. Although OldMaster66 hit it right on. I'm not trained nor disciplined in much recoil. So this too comes with new challenges. I'm just not liking how much ammo I feel it will take to get me where I want to be. Don't get me wrong - this is totally NOT about a win or lose situation. It's about shooting to an ability I know I'm capable of... or thought I was capable of.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by SMBeyer on Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:26 pm

I would say if you shoot the 22 good and the 45 poor 2 things are in play (and your not shooting the 45 that bad).  Recoil and trigger weight.  If your not getting 5 shots off in rapid fire your not recovering from recoil properly.  When you bring the gun back down are the sights aligned or are you having to hunt for that front sight?  Limp wristing will cause the front sight or dot to not be where it is supposed to be when you come back on target from recoil.  When you cant find the front sight or dot coming down from recoil it causes you to not be able to apply pressure to the trigger coming down.  You then align the sights and apply pressure to the trigger.  Doing it this way costs you valuable time in the 45.  If it takes you 1/2 second to align the sights before applying pressure to the trigger there is 2 seconds you can make up.  2 seconds in 45 rapid is huge!  The extra trigger weight in 45 will often cause you to jerk the trigger because you are running out of time.  You can get by with shooting that way with 22 because recovery time is shorter and trigger weights are typically lighter.  During 45 rapid training mentally focus on applying pressure to the trigger before perfect sight picture.  Ignore sight picture and put all your mental focus on trigger.  Dont be afraid of having a shot go off high before you are settled, this simply means you are applying good pressure to the trigger during recovery.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:37 pm

You know Jim Henderson tells shooters just line up the sights and squeeze the trigger. Pretty simple when you think about it :l)
For the 45 its all about consistency. Squeeze the grip the same. Squeeze the trigger the same. Align the sights the same. Having said that, your trigger finger needs to be independent of the gripping fingers. Learn to start squeezing trigger and continuously squeezing until shot breaks. That's the major breakdown of most shooters. They don't learn to just squeeze the trigger and let the shot break. The thumb is crucial in gripping the 45 for slow fire. So practice each fundamental as an individual task. Then when you shoot for real concentrate on trigger squeeze. Those other fundamentals will fall into place. So be consistent in everything and the groups will come. You have to know what a 10 looks like to shoot a 10! When you shoot a 10 reinforce it. Your training your brain to know how to shoot 10's. Let the other stuff go. Go to matches! Let me say that again, go to matches! Masters are at matches. Pick their brain at the match; you will grow. Tough to do on the internet. Lots of people shoot decent 22 scores. 22 is much more forgiving. 45 requires mastering! Learn your fundamentals and the scores will come. Work on your performance not your scores. Fixation on scores leads to poor performance. Shot plan has nothing to do with scores, it has to do with performance. Performance wins matches, not scores. So slow down and enjoy the quest to mastering the 45, its worth every second Smile
Jon


Last edited by Jon Eulette on Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:51 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by john bickar on Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:47 am

Tim:H11 wrote:I'm just not liking how much ammo I feel it will take to get me where I want to be.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but success takes HFW. That includes firing a metric shit-ton of ammo.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by CR10X on Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:13 am

This is a good thread and one the main issue I see with shooters getting from Expert to Master and High Master.

In general (remember that ), most of the issues associated with not shooting the .45 as well as the .22 lies almost entirely with the grip and trigger process.  Shooters can do well with the .22 with a light or inconsistent grip, and a lighter grip enables the trigger finger to operate "easier" (for want of a better term).  Ans that's the lure of shooting the .32 to improve the centerfire scores, but continuing to lose potential improvement in the .45 scores.  

To shoot the .45 most people (again I'm speaking generally here, everyone is different), need to maintain a firmer and absolutely consistent grip.  Consistent grip includes pressure and the even distribution of that pressure in all parts of the hand and fingers.  Except, of course, the trigger finger.  

So train for a while on increasing the grip pressure overall, (with the .22 and the .45) while still completing the trigger process in the same or less amount of time on the target.  In the beginning, don't worry about groups as much as grip pressure and trigger.  Let the alignment and hold take care of themselves.  

(Remember this is training, not actual match shooting.  We're working on developing new habits and physical ability at this time.   As an aside, I wish someone would develop a grip pressure glove, kinda line the trigger measuring devices, so the shooter could see how the grip pressure changes (or not) over the shot process. 

Eventually, developing a better grip pressure and trigger process will also greatly improve the .22 scores.  You'll know you're getting close when the SF scores for .45 are the same or better than the .22. 

Good Shooting, and more importantly, Keep Training. 

Cecil

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by jmdavis on Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:43 am

Cecil, 


This might be made to work. Granted shooters would use it in the opposite way of golfers. 


https://shop.sensoglove.com/SensoGlove-Mens-RH

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Wobbley on Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:09 pm

The problem with gloves is that it is difficult to get consistent grip inside the material of the glove.  I find my hand shifts.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by jmdavis on Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:53 pm

If it could be made to work, you could use it as a diagnostic tool, like a SCATT, rather than something that you use everyday. Golf gloves are usually a tight fit.  I have no idea how well this thing would or could work, and to be honest the Bill Blankenship grip advice from Pistol Shooter's Treasury might make the glove unnecessary.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:46 pm

I've gone back and forth on slab sided grips and Herrett's nationals and can't seem to find a grip where the gun stays put. I've tried the Zins grip and either I didn't get it right or my hand isn't strong enough or o don't know what. But I'm wondering if there is a popular "standard" most gravitate towards.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Wobbley on Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:13 pm

Get a sponge rubber ball of medium bounce and hardness ad squeeze it every day.  Just use your middle and ring fingers leaving the index (trigger) finger out of it.  The pinky gets some exercise too but it can never exert a lot of grip.  Most of the grip comes from the two bigger fingers.

You want a ball bigger than a golf ball and smaller than a baseball and soft enough that you can really move it around.  The nice thing about a ball is that you can use it in the office.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by carykiteboarder on Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:18 pm

I am Cecil's poster-boy for shooting the .32ACP for Center Fire.  My CF scores are the same as my .22 scores but my .45 scores are typically 30 points lower.  He's one of our local Match Directors and teases me that I need to quit dating the .32ACP mistress and MARRY the .45.  Hard to do when that bitch abuses me so badly.  Very Happy

I'm certain that the work I am doing to improve with the .45 has and will continue to expose flaws in my technique with the smaller calibers.  Cecil's words on grip and trigger are EXACTLY what I am seeing.  Hard grip creates more "chicken finger" and the extra trigger weight amplifies the resulting jerkiness.  My own progress is also affected by age (joint pain) and hand size.  Does anyone know a High Master who has hands with finger span greater that 11"?  I'd really like to have a grip and trigger position discussion with that person.  See my new avatar...

Glen

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by weber1b on Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:46 pm

carykiteboarder wrote:I'm certain that the work I am doing to improve with the .45 has and will continue to expose flaws in my technique with the smaller calibers.  Cecil's words on grip and trigger are EXACTLY what I am seeing.  Hard grip creates more "chicken finger" and the extra trigger weight amplifies the resulting jerkiness.  My own progress is also affected by age (joint pain) and hand size.  Does anyone know a High Master who has hands with finger span greater that 11"?  I'd really like to have a grip and trigger position discussion with that person.  See my new avatar...

Glen
I am not a High Master (trying hard to cross over to Expert right now) but my hand spread is nearly 11". I have struggled with many grips due to my hand size. My answer is the Rocco grip on both my 45 and my Marvel which of course is on a 1911 frame. That grip really fills my hand so that it is much easier to hold a consistent grip from shot to shot, line to line. I also run my 22 at 3.5 lbs so both my 45 and 22 are nearly the same (recoil being the variable). I found that helped me take out some of the inconsistency between the guns. My 45 is not where my 22 is from a scoring standpoint, but the gap is narrowing.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:58 pm

Maybe I need to get my self one of those fancy Nelson conversion units...

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by john bickar on Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:30 pm

carykiteboarder, I am literally laughing out loud at your profile pic. (I have "little teenage-girl" sized hands, so if I can poke fun at my hand size, I can poke fun at others'.)

One of the regulars on this board has giant ham hands too and I once commented that they looked like Erich Buljung and Frank Goza had a baby. You might top that Laughing

I think my hand might, maybe, cover the 10-ring - maybe even a skidder 9; I can't help you on grip advice Smile

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by SNaymola on Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:52 pm

I use a device similar to this to exercise the hand and fingers. It has pulls for each finger. I believe Ed Masaki used to promote these.  Bought mine at Target, but I imagine they are available at any of those sorts of stores.


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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Jwhelan939 on Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:05 pm

My scores are far from yours, so take this with a grain of salt; however, I had a huge difference between my 45 and 22 scores. The crisp 45 trigger was just too different from my 22. I switched to a roll trigger in my 45 and my scores have evened out. I'm still nowhere near your  95%, but my 84% in my second season is a great improvement from last year. I don't know what 22 your using, but how different is the feel of the gun from your 45? Just a thought. 

I also use the hand exercise thing. I have the medium to warm up and the Xtra heavy to exercise with. I found it a great help with my grip strength and more importantly endurance.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by Jack H on Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:11 pm

SNaymola wrote:I use a device similar to this to exercise the hand and fingers. It has pulls for each finger. I believe Ed Masaki used to promote these.  Bought mine at Target, but I imagine they are available at any of those sorts of stores.




Use it turned around in your hand.  Pretending the pointy part is the trigger

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by SteveT on Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:59 pm

All good stuff, especially Cecil (CR10X). Read it. Live it.

You say you don't have enough time in RF. You may be spending too much time dressing up the shot. Get back on target, get on the trigger and shoot another 10. Grip and stance need to be right. You need to really control the gun and get right back on target. I need to shoot a lot of 45 in order to shoot RF well. 

If all of the above is working and you still don't have time, I find that a slide mount takes a long time to cycle and throws the gun around a lot. Some people like a slide mount because it feels "softer", but (to me) recoil lasts longer. I prefer a frame mount or open sights because recoil is faster and doesn't throw the gun so far off target. It's a quick snap or kick then it's over.

Finally there's the mental side. I have to be mentally determined to shoot good shots in RF. I sometimes use a drill I call "The Stair Step". (Attribution - Ed Hall wrote about it years ago on the old bullseye list Thanks Ed!)
1. Choose the scoring ring you believe you are capable of shooting all the time
2. Load 5 magazines with one round (sometimes I start with one live round and one dummy)
3. Go through all the commands for each magazine. At the buzzer shoot the one round (with recovery and dry fire if loaded)
4. If all 5 shots are in the chosen scoring ring then load 5 magazines with 2 rounds each (or 2 + dummy) and repeat step 3.
5. If all 5 rounds are in the scoring ring add 1 round to the magazines. If any shot is outside your chosen scoring ring, subtract 1 round.

On my site below there is a file called "drills.zip" this has some mp3 files with shorter time. I usualy use 2.5 or 3 seconds for the first shot, 4 or 5 for two shots, 6 or 7 for three shots, 8 or 9 for four shots and then use the regular commands when (if) I get up to 5 rounds.

https://sites.google.com/site/sdturner/shooting

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by rreid on Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:58 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:I've gone back and forth on slab sided grips and Herrett's nationals and can't seem to find a grip where the gun stays put. I've tried the Zins grip and either I didn't get it right or my hand isn't strong enough or o don't know what. But I'm wondering if there is a popular "standard" most gravitate towards.
If you get the opportunity to go to a Zins-Moody clinic, do it. The thing they will teach you is not that there is one grip that works for everyone, but how to find the grip that works for you.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by pistol champ on Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:04 pm

I watched a new shooter just starting in bullseye shoot every shot trying to make it a 10. His goal was to be a high master. He never cared about his score he only cared about shooting 10's. In his first year of shooting he rarely got 10 shots off in timed and never in rapid but all shots were in the black. (Well very very few in the white) He kept using perfect form and did not form bad habits like jerking of the trigger. He gradually got from shooting 2 or 3 shots in 10 seconds to getting 4 in ten seconds almost all of them were 10's. He now shoots all five off in 10 seconds and is a high master. He used his first years in bullseye as training to make his goal of being a high master. I know he could have shot higher scores in the beginning but his form would have suffered. I remembered once giving him a compliment on a target I was scoring 100-10X and he said no "80-8X I only got 4 off in each string" When people tell you do not worry about your score work on your form believe them I've witnessed this to work. It is just hard to do.

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

Post by LenV on Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:58 pm

john bickar wrote:carykiteboarder, I am literally laughing out loud at your profile pic. (I have "little teenage-girl" sized hands, so if I can poke fun at my hand size, I can poke fun at others'.)

One of the regulars on this board has giant ham hands too and I once commented that they looked like Erich Buljung and Frank Goza had a baby. You might top that Laughing

I think my hand might, maybe, cover the 10-ring - maybe even a skidder 9; I can't help you on grip advice Smile
John, I was curious also. I don't have piano player fingers but I might have him beat on mass. You be the judge. Smile

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Re: I need 45 coaching.

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