Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

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Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:11 pm

Gentleman,

I've heard (internet folklore/knowledge) that Winchester's Large Pistol Primers may be causing breech face erosion on another forum.  This seemed odd to me as they're listed under a large population of recipes in the sticky of the reloading forum.  Fundamentally, what I found are very low numbers of breech face pitting / erosion over several years (2010 to present).  I scoured the internet and found the following break down of manufacturer types that had pitting:

By Brand

7 Unknown 1911 brands
3 Springfield Armory 1911s
3 Les Baer 1911s
2 Glocks
1 Taurus

By Year

2009:  3
2010:  4
2011:  2
2012:  3
2013:  0
2014:  1
2015:  1
2016:  0



Is there a systemic or past problem with Winchester LPPs or is this due to reloading errors (not seating fully), poor metallurgy (slide) or some combination of both?


Thanks,
Derek

Hyperlinks for reference below:


http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/198468-severe-breech-face-pitting-caused-by-cracking-primer-cups-in-wlp/&page=1

http://forums.brianenos.com/index.php?/topic/210928-pitting-1911-breach-face-under-1000-rounds-advice-request/

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=340255


https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=264167

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=428124


http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-650690.html


http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/130609-pitting-breech-face-cause-photo-added.html


http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/split-wlp-primers.1408590/print

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/pitting-on-breech-face-reloading-problem.1343728/

http://www.glocktalk.com/threads/glock-20-breach-face-pitting.1607117/


http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=400479

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?104902-Breech-face-pitting

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bullseye-l-list/Bz-cy2nv7bA


Ulimate Reloader Review

http://ultimatereloader.com/2009/02/01/winchester-wlp-primers/





Last edited by JayhawkNavy02 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:07 am; edited 12 times in total

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by jglenn21 on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:03 pm

I used Win LPP for years and never seen that at all. on any pistol including the 1911s I have.

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by jglenn21 on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:13 pm

having primer pockets that have expanded from heavy loads will do that... At our low loads I doubt anyone would see that unless you got some abused used brass.

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by DavidR on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:21 pm

Use  them now and for many years with no issues, please explain how can a primer can  erode ? the bullet and powder are in front of it when it ignites it seems like if anything is eroding it would be the powder type.

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by jglenn21 on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:24 pm

with larger primer pockets you can actually get flame back to the breach face from the primer or ignition. Typically you see black around the primer.

excessive headspace can also allow the primer to back out..

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by Jon Eulette on Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:37 pm

I've rebuilt some older 45's that have had primer OD erosion on breech face. I dont know history if the pistols; round count, hardball, primer type, etc. But I have seen it. I don't think I've seen it on modern/newer pistols. Perhaps soft breech face?
Jon

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:35 pm

Jon Eulette I don't think I've seen it on modern/newer pistols. Perhaps soft breech face? wrote:Jon

Jon,

The pistols were from 2010 to current, what it doesn't say is the vintage of the firearms that had the issue.   Some of the reports are that the erosion stopped after switching to CCI large pistol vice the Winchester magnum.   Almost all of the 1911s, with only once exception were from Les Baer or Springfield.


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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by cdrt on Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:06 pm

I have a Clark Heavy Slide on a Colt frame that I have put over 24,000 rounds through, using Winchester primers almost exclusively.  I checked after reading this thread and there are no signs of erosion.  As mentioned above, it must have to do with heavy loads.

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by blindshooter on Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:23 am

https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=639513&page=2
I added some pics of a couple of the cases I had with pin holes. The load was 4.5grs TG under a 185 HB RN berry. The theory is Win had some lots where the cups were not annealed well and the work hardened area has small splits or pin holes. Most of the ones I had fail were in RP cases and it does seem the primer pockets are not as tight as some others. These cases were from the early 80's. The primers were purchased during the first Obama scare shortage. I can find the lot # if anyone is interested. I never pursued it with Olin as my damage was caught early and don't affect the operation of the pistol (SA RO). The Headspace is well inside spec. I'm not bashing Win primers, I've shot many thousands in rifle matches some in LR rifles that were loaded on the ragged edge with 0 troubles.

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by spursnguns on Mon Aug 15, 2016 12:02 pm

Hello,

I'm a firm believer that primer caused breech face erosion is not "brand specific" but is more a factor of the loader using defective cases that should have been retired.  Personally; I never saw the need in trying to squeeze the last micro-penny out of a piece of brass to use in a pistol that cost thousands of dollars.  I have used Winchester Large Pistol Primers for over three decades and have never had a problem (my anecdotal observation).

Jim

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by JayhawkNavy02 on Mon Aug 15, 2016 11:23 pm

spursnguns wrote:Hello,

I'm a firm believer that primer caused breech face erosion is not "brand specific" but is more a factor of the loader using defective cases that should have been retired.  Personally; I never saw the need in trying to squeeze the last micro-penny out of a piece of brass to use in a pistol that cost thousands of dollars.  I have used Winchester Large Pistol Primers for over three decades and have never had a problem (my anecdotal observation).

Jim

Jim,

The reason I posted, was to call to question the 1911 forum post mentioned earlier.  I did some searching, see above, and it looks, at least on the surface, that there are considerably more reports with Winchester primers vice others and they occurred in a relatively narrow band 2009-2012.  What I suspect is that some reloaders are not accounting for the difference that the WLP primer being magnum rated and potentially blowing primers or exceeding the correct pressures and also, because, there are issues with a narrow group of brands, there may be some metallurgy issues the rest may be due to manufacturing issues at Olin/Winchester or some combination thereof. 

If you search for Federal you will find very few issues and effectively almost none for CCI in 45 ACP.  So while I agree completely, that there is probably "something" going on with folks reloading methodology, it appears, at least on the surface, that there may be something Winchester's manufacturing processes, at least at some point in time.

Break

Enjoy a plate of garlic fries at Black Bear diner for me and the Gilroy Gardens.  Central California is a terrific place.

Derek

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by blindshooter on Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:51 am

My thoughts

I'm not an "expert" in analyzing firearm issues.
I have been pushing primers into brass cases since 1976.
I like Win primers or at least used to.
I don't intend to bash Win primers.
If anyone thinks I'm wrong, say so. I can take and use constructive criticism.

I think the primer cup material was a tad too hard or the anneal was uneven across the sheet. The cup was then punched leaving the shoulder of the cup brittle in spots. They then crack under the pressure of firing the round. Also loads on the light side in guns that don't have close to min headspace may allow "muffin tops" that could further stress the shoulder of the primer cup. Cases that have pockets that land on the large side of the spectrum may increase the chances of the latter? I caught the pitting after shooting 100 loads with primers out of a new lot number, I clean the breech face after every range session so I'm sure the majority of the pitting occurred during that last session. I dumped the fired cases on top of a five gallon bucket of .45 acp then discovered the pitting while cleaning the pistol later, went back to the bucket and checked the cases on the top and found 4 with the cracked/pin holed primers. Three were RP and one TZZ match cases. Poured off about 2 inches of cases and checked hundreds without any holes or dark rings around primers. I have fired around 1800 of the same load with CCI 300's without any further issue with the same pistol. Off to work now, I can provide lot # and load data later.

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by dronning on Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:41 am

I've seen issues/variations with just about every mfg of components over the years, one thing I haven't changed is primers - Winchester.

CCI primers are larger in diameter so if a primer pocket is big they would work better.  

My brass has always been either once fired or new Federal (I now shoot Starline too).  Coming close to 100,000 rounds with WLP primers (across many guns) and no issues.  Not knowing what brass has been through or loaded with is why I stay away from range brass.  I also wet tumble my brass now after decapping.

- Dave

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by spursnguns on Tue Aug 16, 2016 11:32 am

Hello Derek (et. al.),

I hear what you are saying but "statistically"....taking into account the millions of Winchester factory loaded rounds, the millions of reloaded rounds, unknown brass/guns/loads/reloading techniques, etcetera....taking into account the small sampling....I would be hard pressed to draw any type of real conclusion.  That's just the engineer in me talking.

And yes, Derek; the Central Coast is a beautiful and special place (albeit as a California Native; it's hard to take most other aspects of this once great state).

And yes, I'm with Dave; I never use range brass (only Starline and ASYM for my M1911's).

Jim

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

Post by blindshooter on Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:48 pm

Here are few more I found after a quick tumble to remove range dirt. Sorry about the low quality cell pics. I included a case with CCI 300 fired using the same load. These fissures or cracks are smaller than the first ones I picked out so may not show up as well. I only found one case other than RP and that was the TZZ match and I pushed the primer out of that one to see how far the crack went up the sidewall. All the cracks were in the shoulder of the cup no matter how big it was. Hope the photo link works.


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More pics

Post by blindshooter on Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:09 pm

http://s26.photobucket.com/user/blindshooter/library/primers
Added some pics of a few of the cracked/pitted WLP's I pushed out this morning. I can't find the worst ones I thought I saved when I first discovered the problem, they were some degree worse than these. Also included is the suspect lot #.

I also used a hand prime tool to seat some of the same lot # primers into the same cases that had failed primers and they seemed to take normal force to fully seat. Compared the same cases with CCI 300's and found no or very small difference in the amount of force to fully seat. Maybe the CCI's took a minute amount more pressure. While comparing the RP cases to a bunch of other headstamps I did notice the RP primer pocket seems to have much more radius than the others? I could see that contributing to the cracking pitting failures at the cup shoulder.


Last edited by blindshooter on Sat Aug 20, 2016 3:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : More info)

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Re: Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP / LPP) Breech Face Pitting / Erosion

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