Roll trigger for EIC

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Roll trigger for EIC

Post by orpheoet on Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:35 pm

I put one of K.C.'s roll triggers into my Range Officer with the thought that feeling the trigger moving would help with the change from my wad gun to the heavier EIC trigger pull. It feels very different but with only about 50 rounds of practice I was able to get decent results today in an EIC match. I'm just curious if anybody has any thoughts on this notion. My wad gun is a Salyer tuned Springfield with what I consider  a very crisp trigger.

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by LenV on Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:24 am

I have several. I think 4lbs is 4lbs and I am not sure if the roll helps overcome that pull. I guess if you think it does then it helps. I took 7 pistols to the range yesterday with the plan of shooting a NMC (EIC) with each pistol and see what I scored best with. I didn't have any 22s with me so starting trigger weight was a little over 2.5 lbs. My test from the point of figuring out which CF pistol to use in next weeks State match was a failure. All 3 pistols with light triggers I shot the same score 280-7x. I then shot 2 revolvers with open sights and broke 270 (barely) with both. Then it was time to try the 4lb triggers. Shot a 256 with the 45 and then tried the ultimate roll trigger in an XDM. I had a good timed fire. Period. I didn't even add up the score. After shooting those lighter triggers when I got to the 4 lb pistols it felt like their safeties were still on. Oh, when I say ultimate roll trigger I was not referring to quality it just seems to roll and roll forever. Probably not apples and oranges. I did one last test for fun and shot my carry pistol for same match. Scored 276-8x with a RO in 38 super. 2.5 lb trigger. That's the one I want to use for EIC. darn...

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Froneck on Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:57 am

when I started shooting everyone was talking about the breaks like glass crisp trigger so I had crisp too. Never being able to get the breaks like glass trigger I experimented and found a way to do it. Some time later I was at a match waiting for my relay listening to conversation about trigger types. The top ball shooter and standard .45 was talking about his change to roll. He stated targets would turn (especially in rapid fire) and he would be squeezing the trigger, knowing he's running out of time would jerk a 9 or 8 then finish the string with 10s and X's. I thought to myself that's me too though there were less 10s and X's and the jerk was probably at best a 7! Some time later my super crisp trigger developed some movement at a match, I felt it during slow fire but was able to get by with my normal slow fire score. (Slow fire was my thing, I did very well in SF) As the match continued I became accustomed to the movement and my short line scores got better than normal. I'll never forget the last Rapid Fire, shot the first 5 all in the black, second 4 was the same but the 5th round jammed. Alibi was allowed and I shot another 5, again all in the black! Going down to score it became evident to me and the scorer that they were all in the 10 or better. The scorer joking said how many did you shoot over the top of the target? The range officer was behind us and said he had binoculars on my target and I put all 5 alibi shots in the X ring! I was scored 100-7X with a 14round alibi! First ever 100 with the.45, I was sold on the "roll" trigger. Later that same year at Perry I had Jimmy Clark do my Hard Ball gun with the type movement I liked, I returned later with the Ball Rapid Fire Target, 100-6X!!
 Over the years I have found that the word roll trigger has many meanings. Some like the movement to get lighter, others want it to move while the weight is constantly increasing. Mine I like to feel the trigger begin to slide back, I apply pressure until I feel the trigger begin to move, I keep the pressure on the trigger until it fires. Too much movement slows me down in Rapid Fire. Feeling the movement takes my mind off the trigger, movement tells me it will fire soon so I concentrate on sighting! As far as trigger weight don't change, it don't but when Adam was still home we had a saying that we like the 3.5 pound trigger (one that just picked up 3.5 pounds when very carefully tested) that felt like 2 pounds not the one that felt like 5! Not sure what causes that, never investigated it but it does exist!

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Christopher Miceli on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:44 am

Rolls feel different pending weight.  Try and get a short roll on a 2lb trigger. Very hard to feel

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by jmdavis on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:53 am

Hey Chris, 

What is the weight on the SA RO 22 that you had done? And is that one a long or medium roll?

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Christopher Miceli on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:55 am

2.25lb and a short roll. I had Doug hall put it in his machine.  You can see the roll but I can't feel it

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by jmdavis on Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:58 am

So are you thinking that a medium would be better or are you happy as is? My only experience is dryfiring KC's shop gun which is a medium and dryfiring a couple of Zin's guns. 


Mike

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Christopher Miceli on Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:06 pm

I like mine short on 22 you could almost call it crisp.  I can tell a difference in roll length on a 3.5lb trigger and my ball gun at 4. I believe my ball gun is technically longer than my 3.5 by feel. Didn't have a chance for Doug to measure it. Never felt the medium or long on a 2.  

I think it all comes down to what works for you. I visited KC a lot @ Perry to get what I wanted.

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Froneck on Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:44 pm

Chris is correct, it comes down to what is best for the person using the gun! My guns are the same as Chis mentioned. My .22 has a very short "roll" and my .45's longer. Being I have the European type .22's that have all kinds of trigger adjustment. I can easily get the trigger to feel just as I like. Using them I can determine what works best for me and adapt it to my .45. Fortunately I have a complete machine shop so I can do it myself. But for those that don't have the ability to modify, locating a guy like KC and explaining what is desired can do it. Remember more than one attempt might be needed until the optimum feel is attained.

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Tim:H11 on Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:55 pm

I did the trigger work in my Range Officer and I got a REALLY crisp clean feeling trigger with no movement to speak of other than the first stage of take up. Once it hit resistance there was no movement. Just pressure then bang. Had it at 3.75#. Loved it but in sustained fire it got heavy and felt like others have described with safeties still on and why hasn't the gun gone off yet and so on. 

So I put in a new control fire group and left the hammer hooks a little longer and gave it some movement in the feel of the trigger. I like this much better because I can gauge where I am better in terms of when the gun is going to go off and instead of a "glass rod breaking" type feel it's more smooth and soft. It does break clean and has been described by shooters at my range as crisp but not like before. Softer is what I like to say about it. And again it's set to 3.75#. 

And I'll say this too about trigger or hammer bounce - There is a way to solve it with out having to buy a new disconnector or several disconnectors until you find the right one. And it's not in the sear spring or hammer spring either. Yes its a disconnector thing but it has to do with the relationship between the sear and disconnector. And it can be corrected without buying new parts. Buying light weight triggers is unnecessary unless you just want the look that trigger offers.

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by orpheoet on Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:49 pm

I've heard a few people compare a long roll to shooting a revolver double action. I'd call this a long roll but it's actually the only roll trigger I've shot...  I did pretty well in the DR match also so maybe there is something to the revolver analogy.

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:23 pm

I like a long roll on 1911 when shooting two handed and of course double action on revolver. I'm of the opinion you have to be able to hold extremely well with a long roll. I find that I two group with shooting one BE style; centered group and low group. I prefer short roll because you know trigger is moving and shots break fast! I don't want to wait an eternity for shot to break.
Jon

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by Froneck on Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:59 am

My 1911 "roll" is at the most after take-up to trigger stop less than 1/8" My .22 about 1/2 that. Like Jon I couldn't shoot a very long "roll". If anything it will slow me down big time in Rapid Fire. When I mentioned Jimmy Clark did my Ball Gun his first "roll" travel was a little long but no where near a double action movement on a revolver. When I told him it was toooo long he said I know what you want, I didn't have time to test it, I had to take it to the line but as it turned out Jimmy was right he knew what I wanted and it was perfect!!
 When shooting both guns the amount of roll seems the same, not sure why the .22 movement moves less when looking at it but I feel the small movement more on the .22. Might be because the .22's have pivoting triggers and the 1911 straight pull back.

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

Post by rich.tullo on Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:30 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:I like a long roll on 1911 when shooting two handed and of course double action on revolver. I'm of the opinion you have to be able to hold extremely well with a long roll. I find that I two group with shooting one BE style; centered group and low group. I prefer short roll because you know trigger is moving and shots break fast! I don't want to wait an eternity for shot to break.
Jon
100%

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Re: Roll trigger for EIC

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