Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

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Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Tim:H11 on 8/29/2016, 7:57 pm

I shot my 45 in the center fire agg at yesterday's match. I don't have any other gun that would work for match use as a center fire pistol. I noticed it's a common thing to shoot the 45 twice in a 2700. I'm
Curious as to why? I understand that on one hand you've got "less recoil = more points" with a 32, 38, or 9mm... And then on the other hand "to get to the top you've gotta master the 45 so shoot it a lot and learn it. Plus you save money on not buying a third gun."

Also I see an advantage in having a bigger hole when it comes to liners. But if recoil was less then a liner might not be that big of a deal since you probably group better with a lower recoiling gun. 

So tell me please what do YOU use and WHY do you use it for center fire. 

Just curious to see the options out there.
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/29/2016, 8:03 pm

I shoot the 1911 for CF and 45.  Gotta master the 45. I've seen shooters that have. Doesn't seem like it's a real advantage to shoot a smaller caliber for them. Just my observation.
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Saladman on 8/29/2016, 8:37 pm

As a total newb, the advantage of having a gun specifically for centerfire is that it will likely work for international style events which are popular at my club and are often shot alongside NRA/CMP events.  I just wish they would add a proper 50m free pistol event.  Of course, I don't have one of those either.  Laughing

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by weber1b on 8/29/2016, 8:52 pm

I started shooting the 1911 for both for a simple reason, I was not in a position to buy a third gun. I also really like shooting the 45 and it is simpler to reload for one gun. It was also a little intimidating trying to sort out all the choices. In the end, I'm happy shooting with what I shoot. I also shoot a Marvel conversion on a 1911 frame so there is a lot of consistency across the calibers.

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Wobbley on 8/29/2016, 9:26 pm

Here are pictures of two targets shot with a 52 and my 1911 Wadgun. It really shows that good 45s will shoot up there with the 38s.  Not that they're easier to shoot.   https://www.facebook.com/groups/216804568382563/permalink/1167053656690978/

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Allen Barnett on 8/29/2016, 10:04 pm

I am sure that some of the Master and High Master shooters will chime in here eventually.  I am now at the age I will never reach that level of mastery.  But back on the day when I shot for the Missouri National Guard Pistol Team we were not allowed to shoot anything but the 22 and the 45 and the 45 was full power hard ball only until you had broken 2500 a minimum of 3 times.  At that point you were allowed to shoot 45 wad.  Once you had broken 2600 then you were allowed to shoot a 52 Smith in 38 special.  The thinking for the military was that you must master the 45 as it was the only "service pistol" and the 52 Smith 38 special is a very unforgiving pistol to shoot.  Chris states it well in his post that you have to master the 45 for the 45 match so why not shoot it in the CF match also.  Shooting the same pistol for both CF and 45 matches really helps you simplify your learning curve early on.  My suggestion would be to stay with the 45 for both CF and 45 until reach a level where your scores have seemed to leveled out then maybe add a true CF gun to get those last few points.  Additionally I would suggest since you are young that you stay with iron sights until age starts creeping in with your focusing abilities.  Red dots are nice and make scoring easier but you will only learn the true basics of sight alignment and trigger control using irons.  Red dots also tend to cover up bad habits which you might develop.  To digress using only 2 guns helps to keep cost down and allows you to look around and try some different guns before investing in a third gun.  When you do decide to make the jump to a third gun buy the best you can.

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Ghillieman on 8/30/2016, 2:36 am

What do I use and why?
I shoot a 45 for both stages because it works and my scores are higher than with a 32 for the centerfire stage. That may change, and if it does I will shoot whatever gives me higher scores.

I also like the one caliber one load simplicity of the 45 for both stages.

Load up a ton of practice ammo as cheap as possible. Go to the range and shoot until you can clean the 25 yard line. The short line is 66% of the match.
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.38 Super for Center Fire

Post by Richard Ashmore on 8/30/2016, 6:47 am

I'm getting old Crying or Very sad

So I now shoot a .38 Super for center fire and save my shoulder for the mighty .45!
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by dronning on 8/30/2016, 7:34 am

Richard Ashmore wrote:I'm getting old Crying or Very sad

So I now shoot a .38 Super for center fire and save my shoulder for the mighty .45!

I have a 38 super being made, what loads do you use.

- Dave
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by orpheoet on 8/30/2016, 8:40 am

I want a .38 wadcutter 1911 but they seem scarce. I use .45 1911 for both. Sometimes I use a M14 if I'm shooting iron sights...I've never tried my M52-2 outdoors because I've read so many say they don't do well, but I do use it indoors. Iron sights....
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by dronning on 8/30/2016, 8:46 am

orpheoet wrote:I want a .38 wadcutter 1911 but they seem scarce. I use .45 1911 for both. Sometimes I use a M14 if I'm shooting iron sights...I've never tried my M52-2 outdoors because I've read so many say they don't do well, but I do use it indoors. Iron sights....

One for sale in Commercial Row right now.

- Dave
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Chris Miceli on 8/30/2016, 8:57 am

orpheoet wrote:I want a .38 wadcutter 1911 but they seem scarce. I use .45 1911 for both. Sometimes I use a M14 if I'm shooting iron sights...I've never tried my M52-2 outdoors because I've read so many say they don't do well, but I do use it indoors. Iron sights....
Clark is making fast twist barrels in 9mm and 38 now. 1-10 and 1-16
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Skid on 8/30/2016, 9:05 am

dronning I also shoot a .38 super for CF I shoot starline brass, Fed match small primers, 3.0 grs WST with a 147gr. lswc bullet.

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by dronning on 8/30/2016, 10:38 am

Skid wrote:dronning I also shoot a .38 super for CF I shoot starline brass, Fed match small primers, 3.0 grs WST with a 147gr. lswc bullet.

Who makes the bullets?  I don't cast and I could only find 147gr LRN, no LSWC.  OAL & crimp, I'm just starting to collect data, it will be a couple of months before I get the .38 super.

Ever try 158gr LSWC?

- Dave
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Jon Eulette on 8/30/2016, 11:24 am

I've been doing the BE game since 1988. So I've witnessed and tried sub .45 caliber cartridges for the CF portion of the 2700. I shot .38 special probably around 50% of the time I shot for USAR and AMU teams. I found that my scores were similar between the .38 and the .45, but was typically a few points higher with the .45 average wise. I love shooting the .38, but you really have to be on your game with it to make it shine. I believe if you shoot a lot that you are better off shooting the .45 for both CF and .45 aggregates. If you're a part-timer than you might benefit from shooting the smaller calibers because you won't fatigue as much from shooting the smaller calibers. I recently talked to Steve Reiter (2670 shooter) about the smaller calibers and he and Mel Makin (2660 shooter) decided in the mid 1970's that there was no advantage. I was once shooting California State Championship with Reiter. After the CF match we were within a point of each other going into the .45 aggregate. I started harassing him and teasing him that he was old (I was in my 20's and he was in his 50's) and I was going to beat him Razz)  Well, he shot a low 890's that beat my lowly mid 880's. Reiter was known to shoot the .45 better than his .22! He really mastered it. But he shot all the time and still does; I think that is crucial to mastering the .45. Darius 'Doc' Young is the only shooter I've known to really excel regularly using the smaller calibers for CF match. My personal best with the .38 and .45 are within 1 point of each other. So as I've gotten older I realize many shooters shoot for fun. So buy yourself a small caliber CF pistol and enjoy it. I don't think you can buy points shooting a smaller caliber, you might shoot it better than your .45, but it's not because it's a better caliber, it's more likely you haven't mastered the .45 yet. Also shooting I like shooting my mouse load .45's for the shortline that don't kick much more than my .38 special does. And finally, I'm building myself a new .38 special......just because :l)
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by rich.tullo on 8/30/2016, 12:20 pm

A little history: 

60 years ago revolvers out numbered pistols on the line 22lr, 32sw, 38spl, and 45 ACP. 

Some people then shot 45 ACP because a GI military surplus gun was cheaper than a Smith And Wesson Model 25 even after accurrizing. $15 military surplus donor versus $195 list price for a Model 25 in the 1950's 

Semi Auto 22lrs started out shooting revolvers pistols were obsolete for 22lr. 

Then someone started accurrizing 38 Supers my making them into 38 Specials. 

Records were broke with the Wad Guns then they invented the Model 52. By that time unless you were a cop with free access to ammo revolvers were obsolete for many shooters. 

They applied the same accurizing ideas to the 45acp and rest is history. 

So unless you like a round like 38 super which has many uses 45acp seems to be the way to go, I have seem guys shoot 1600's using a 22lr Pardini or Walter converted to 32 S&W and then shoot 600"s with 45 ACP. 

So I would not do it to score high if you do not shoot the 45acp well. 

http://wilson--blog.blogspot.com/2010/03/people-with-guns-collection-18.html
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by dronning on 8/30/2016, 12:23 pm

For me the .38 Super is more for fun during Winter leagues and hopefully it will give my arm a little break.  Keeping the 1911 platform is important otherwise I'd be shooting my M52 or a revolver for CF. 

- Dave
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Skid on 8/30/2016, 1:17 pm

Ok 
 1. dronning the OAL is 1.266. I use Magnus & Dardas sized .356...crimp is .379 and I use a taper crimp.

 2. So this year so far has been my best year and just this past Sunday I noticed what others have posted Jon etc..are saying about shooting sub .45 calibers . I noticed that my .45 and 38 super scores are virtually the same but I tend to shoot better scores on the long line with the .45. So effective immediately I'm going to shoot two guns and continue to practice with my super. I shoot a lot of 96's -99's at the short line with the super but this weekend I started doing the same with my .45 well until my dot came off during the last timed fire before starting rapid...oops and I was on track to break 800.
 Anyways we all have are reasons for wanting and shooting sub .45 guns so enjoy them. Smile

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by Skid on 8/30/2016, 1:24 pm

oh and no I've never tried the 158 lswc.

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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by LenV on 8/30/2016, 3:14 pm

Skid wrote:oh and no I've never tried the 158 lswc.
I have. I posted my test results earlier. To summarize the 158gr were a miserable failure. My best bullet was the Magnus J-161 125gr.356 and best lead was Magnus 130gr SWC sized down to .356. I did a lot of tests.



Len
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Re: Center Fire Guns. What? and Why?

Post by jglenn21 on 8/30/2016, 4:41 pm

At my age I guess I am shooting for fun like Jon said so I shoot a 38 super in CF. Fun to shoot. Very accurate and no real recoil.  I shoot 126 Dardus swc with it over 3.6 - 3.8 of BE. Under 2" at 50 yards with those so it's cheap to shoot too. 

If you like the small calibers shoot them
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