Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

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Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:32 pm

If you had a 1911 frame for a wad gun used in CF/45 and for that frame had two uppers or slides - one with irons and one with a dot sight... Could you (if you wanted to) use the dot for sustained fire and irons for SF? 

The rules say we can switch guns for different matches but in this case the FRAME is the gun. That's where the SN is. And I'm asking about changing out the slide during the NMC.

Reason I ask is because I shoot irons better at 50 than a dot, and a dot better at 25 then the irons. At least with the 22. So I wonder what can be done for the 45?

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by LenV on Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:57 pm

Technically it is probably legal. I know quite a few shooters that change recoil springs after the SF stage. That is a change in the pistol. But, you could do both without changing slides. There are a lot of frame mounted rails that let you still use the steel sights. Another option.. 


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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Jack H on Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:26 pm

9.1 Changing Pistols -
Competitors are to use the same pistol during single stage matches, i.e., Slow Fire, Timed Fire, Rapid Fire and NMC (a single match). If a pistol becomes disabled at any time
and is designated as such by the Chief Range Officer, all shots fired up to the time the claim is made will stand as part of the official score. Any disabled claim must be made immediately. The exchange of barrels, detachable weights etc. shall not be restricted.(For timed and rapid fire see rules 9.5, 10.9, and 10.10.)


http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by DavidR on Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:58 pm

No you cant change out a gun during a match (the NMC is a match) unless you disable it which if you only have the one frame you would be disabling your only gun Laughing so Only if you used it on thru the NM course, then you could change it for timed and rapid fire matches.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by LenV on Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:31 pm

DavidR wrote:No you cant change out a gun during a match (the NMC is a match) unless you disable it which if you only have the one frame you would be disabling your only gun Laughing so Only if you used it on thru the NM course, then you could change it for timed and rapid fire matches.
Playing jail house lawyer. You just said that he would be disabling his only gun. So, like I said. Technically he would be using the same gun and it would probably be legal. Probably. I wouldn't go to a match hoping the person running it thought the same way.



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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by LenV on Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:36 pm

Jack H wrote:9.1 Changing Pistols -
Competitors are to use the same pistol during single stage matches, i.e., Slow Fire, Timed Fire, Rapid Fire and NMC (a single match). If a pistol becomes disabled at any time
and is designated as such by the Chief Range Officer, all shots fired up to the time the claim is made will stand as part of the official score. Any disabled claim must be made immediately. The exchange of barrels, detachable weights etc. shall not be restricted.(For timed and rapid fire see rules 9.5, 10.9, and 10.10.)


http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf
Still playing devils advocate. There is a lot of leeway when the changing of barrels, detachable weights (ETC) shall not be restricted. Lots of room in etc for a slide.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by DavidR on Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:09 pm

OldMaster66 wrote:
DavidR wrote:No you cant change out a gun during a match (the NMC is a match) unless you disable it which if you only have the one frame you would be disabling your only gun Laughing so Only if you used it on thru the NM course, then you could change it for timed and rapid fire matches.
Playing jail house lawyer. You just said that he would be disabling his only gun. So, like I said. Technically he would be using the same gun and it would probably be legal. Probably. I wouldn't go to a match hoping the person running it thought the same way.



Len
Well he asked  specifically about changing it during the NMC and to disable is the only option for changing guns as I understand it. IMO its not productive to do all the switching, swapping or other, only a mater of time till it bites you in the bottom and you alibi or worse... KISS is still the best option

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by LenV on Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:14 pm

Actually he didn't ask about changing guns. He knows that he can't change guns in the middle of the NMC. What he is asking is, does changing the slide constitute changing the gun? Or is it the same as changing a barrel or a spring and is still the same gun? That said, I agree with you 100% about swapping things out in the middle of a match. Be sure to have extra recoil springs and stops in your box.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:51 pm

Ok so the rule says I can't change guns during a match. And really I'm looking at the NMC not that it makes a difference in the rules but I'm looking at a change from 50 to 25 yards. Where it says the changing of barrels and ETC may not be restricted.... Does that mean mid way through a match I can pull a barrel change? And ETC is awfully vague....

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by C.Perkins on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:08 pm

Pick the best combination slide to frame fit.
Install an iron sight/rib combo mount on slide.
Install Leupold quick disconnect rings.
Swap is a couple to five seconds.

You do not want to be that guy, that holds up the line for the inevitable delay in a match Smile

My .02 cents

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:12 pm

Why is it a big deal if the line waits 20 seconds for a swap. Honestly
I felt rushed at the Sunday match. Or maybe I'm inexperienced.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Jack H on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:25 pm

I would not guarantee your zero even if your two uppers were perfectly fit to the common lower.  That said I see nothing restricting the change.  There is plenty of time if you finish SF fairly quick.  If more time is needed and some old guys get grumpy, I have a word for them.  However, excessive delay would be a problem subject to the rules. 

But then I am not the Match Director.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by C.Perkins on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:36 pm

Tim:H11 wrote:Why is it a big deal if the line waits 20 seconds for a swap. Honestly
I felt rushed at the Sunday match. Or maybe I'm inexperienced.
Did not mean to push your button Tim:H11  Shocked

You go down to score.
The person you are scoring wants a plug/disputes your scoring or etc...
Everyone is back to the line ready and you are just getting back.
The call "is the line ready".
Tim holds up his hand and now everyone is at ease until Tim gets done swapping his slide and finding another spring and plug that just launched during Tims haste.

Too much crap going on while trying to focus on shooting fundamentals when five seconds takes care of it instead of, you say 20 seconds.
Just my honest opinion.
Leupold quick disconnect mounts are repeatable to within a couple clicks at 50 yards, been there and done that.

Good luck with your decision.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by john bickar on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:40 pm

It depends whether you spray the slide with WD-40 during the changeover.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by C.Perkins on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:44 pm

^^^ Laughing

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Tim:H11 on Wed Aug 31, 2016 9:53 pm

Full Length guide rod. Put hammer at full cock, pull slide back and pop out pin. slide on the new slide and pop in the new pin. Done. And how I shoot slow fire targets it'll probably be done before we go down range to score. 

This is all besides the point. My topic at question isn't CAN it be done. It's is it allowed? It seems like a yes from some and no from others.... maybe up to interpretation...

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by john bickar on Wed Aug 31, 2016 11:07 pm

You shot 2514 in your very first match. You're doing just fine.

You're not likely to innovate your way to 2600 (and above); you're more likely to simplify your way to 2600 (and above).

Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by jmdavis on Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:40 am

john bickar wrote:You shot 2514 in your very first match. You're doing just fine.

You're not likely to innovate your way to 2600 (and above); you're more likely to simplify your way to 2600 (and above).

Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals.
That's some good advice. 

I've heard it from National Champions, 2600 and 2650 shooters and Olympians. I'm happy to say that it finally took this year at Perry.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by CR10X on Thu Sep 01, 2016 6:59 am

On the one hand for the original question, I'd have to opine that it is probably OK.  Would like to talk to a couple of refs about this though.

But as the astute Mr. Bickar stated, progress in shooting is by simplification and fundamentals.  And the statement of dots better than irons at 25 versus 50 should give you a great indication of where to look for improvement (Somewhere in the general vicinity of the front sight and maintaining focus there during sustained fire strings?) Basic concept for bullseye, the target is the least important thing when shooting irons. 

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by dronning on Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:28 am

CR10X wrote:...Basic concept for bullseye, the target is the least important thing when shooting irons. 

Tim:H11 this brings up the thought, if the you shoot irons better at 50, what are you focusing on when you shoot a dot, the dot or target black?

Some people have much better luck focusing on the black when shooting a dot.  Turn the dot intensity down and give it a try.  Zins uses the analogy "when you throw a ball do you look at the ball or where you are throwing it".  For irons your focus has to be on the front sight.

- Dave

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by davekp on Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:33 am

Why not spend some time improving slow fire with the dot?

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Tim:H11 on Thu Sep 01, 2016 8:56 am

The dot at 50 doesn't sit still. Recovery is faster with a dot at 25 so I've found with my 22. And I feel I get better control at 50 with irons. At 50 with irons I can call the shots 6 or 7 times out of 10. With a dot half the time I'm guessing. Except in sustained fire the dot is always moving. The trick I've found is to break the shot and time it so that when red hits center it bounces off. As soon as the shot breaks recovery begins and I apply pressure. If I've done it right then when the dot gets back over the cneter the gun should go bang.

With irons I'm always looking at the front sight. I have to in order to make it work. With a dot I catch my focus going between target and dot sometimes. Too much going on.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by Rob9mmshooter on Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:15 am

If you are shooting the 50 good with irons and have trouble at the 25 sounds like you need to work on your grip/stance/point of aim so that your sustained recovery is aligned.  Also you may want to consider following the rules I understand the new Army Marksmanship Unit shooters march to.  That is to fire 870 with iron sights before you put a dot on the gun.

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by dronning on Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:40 am

Tim:H11 wrote:With irons I'm always looking at the front sight. I have to in order to make it work. With a dot I catch my focus going between target and dot sometimes. Too much going on.

The gun is moving the same, whether you shoot dot or irons, it's the distraction of the dot (mental) that is getting you.  That's why if you turn the dot down (less distracting) and focus on the black and let your subconscious take over, your results might improve.  

I have the same issue on the long line, that and a twitch that is becoming more persistent.

- Dave

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Re: Rules on Changing Guns/Slides...

Post by DavidR on Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:09 am

Tim:H11 wrote:Why is it a big deal if the line waits 20 seconds for a swap. Honestly
I felt rushed at the Sunday match. Or maybe I'm inexperienced.
If you felt rushed at matchmasters your in for a rude awaking at many other ranges and for sure camp perry!! Speaking of Perry you would not have time to do your switching and the refs would not be kind imo. the 3 minute prep seems like 30 seconds there lol!  As good as you shoot, your heading down the wrong path imo, my best advise is simply pick one dot or sights and practice, practice, practice...

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