The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

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The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by orpheoet on 9/18/2016, 10:16 pm

I heard that the NRA is abandoning everything but "Open". If that's true does anybody know why?
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by john bickar on 9/18/2016, 10:57 pm

Because match directors are already masochistic enough, and no competitor other than motorcycle_dan is enough of a sadist to force it on already-overburdened match directors?

What do I win?
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by james r chapman on 9/19/2016, 6:52 am

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by cdrt on 9/19/2016, 1:20 pm

I talked to Damien at the NRA Competitions section.  They are going to discuss doing away with the Production division at the November rules committee meeting, but not the Metallic division.  The feeling is, that no one would be competitive with a .22 under the Production division rules.

They would like to keep the Metallic division, so we, as match directors could either run an iron sight only match or give a special award if we had more than a few guys shooting iron sights during an Open competition.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by CR10X on 9/19/2016, 2:02 pm

Deleted
+1 to John
Have a nice day.


Last edited by CR10X on 9/19/2016, 2:37 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : My dog was not in agreement with my observations. He's sometimes smarter than me, but then again I don't go the the bathroom on the front lawn when no one's looking.)

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by rreid on 9/19/2016, 8:07 pm

cdrt wrote:The feeling is, that no one would be competitive with a .22 under the Production division rules
I'm glad it only took them 2 years to figure that out.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by john bickar on 9/19/2016, 8:40 pm

james r chapman wrote:
It is everything I've ever wanted.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by DeweyHales on 9/20/2016, 2:47 pm

I have shot the Metallic division since before there was a separate category. It helped me to leg out. I shot irons at Perry this year. It was disheartening that the NRA wants local match directors to separate the divisions, but the NRA doesn't separate them out at Nationals. I'm now in the same classification for irons or open. It was nice to be in a score appropriate division when I transitioned to irons.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by cdrt on 9/20/2016, 4:39 pm

DeweyHales wrote:I have shot the Metallic division since before there was a separate category. It helped me to leg out. I shot irons at Perry this year. It was disheartening that the NRA wants local match directors to separate the divisions, but the NRA doesn't separate them out at Nationals. I'm now in the same classification for irons or open. It was nice to be in a score appropriate division when I transitioned to irons.

As a match director, I have never received any instructions from the Competitions Section to separate out the divisions.  The rule, as I see it, gives us the option of running an iron sight only match, which was something we could have done before anyway or we can opt to award someone for shooting irons only, if there are enough competitors to give out a special award.  I have shot irons for most of my Bullseye time (I started in 1974), only switching to the dot about three years ago.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by Ghillieman on 9/21/2016, 2:16 am

john bickar wrote:Because match directors are already masochistic enough, and no competitor other than motorcycle_dan is enough of a sadist to force it on already-overburdened match directors?

What do I win?
I'm all for Irons only and a Metallic division. I'm sure Daryl T. (CDRT) has a lot on his plate, but I push for Metallic competition, and he hasn't completely told me to go fly a kite.. yet....
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by cdrt on 9/21/2016, 7:12 am

Ghillieman wrote:
john bickar wrote:Because match directors are already masochistic enough, and no competitor other than motorcycle_dan is enough of a sadist to force it on already-overburdened match directors?

What do I win?
I'm all for Irons only and a Metallic division. I'm sure Daryl T. (CDRT) has a lot on his plate, but I push for Metallic competition, and he hasn't completely told me to go fly a kite.. yet....

Dan, only received three responses to the email I sent out, asking if anyone would want to attend a Metallic only match....not enough interest at this time.  If we have enough competitors shooting irons at the state outdoor next year, we may give out a class award to the high shooter, but they will have to identify themselves at the beginning of the match.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by orpheoet on 9/21/2016, 7:23 am

I enjoy shooting Metallic. I bought a 7 inch barrel for my 41 just for that reason. I also bought a 52-2, and recently a .38 wadcutter 1911 all with the intention of shooting Metallic. So I'm admittedly disappointed that I'll have to compete in open. I started this game at 46 and my eyes aren't getting younger. Yeah, I can put dots on them, but I probably won't.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by cdrt on 9/21/2016, 8:30 am

orpheoet wrote:I enjoy shooting Metallic. I bought a 7 inch barrel for my 41 just for that reason. I also bought a 52-2, and recently a .38 wadcutter 1911 all with the intention of shooting Metallic. So I'm admittedly disappointed that I'll have to compete in open. I started this game at 46 and my eyes aren't getting younger. Yeah, I can put dots on them, but I probably won't.

Have you checked with your local club/organization to see if they would sponsor/run a iron-sight only match?  The problem I have down here, is a lack of interest plus I would have to fit such a match in with what we already have on the calendar.  I have to run the Sectional and State Gallery match in March, the State Indoor in April, and the State Outdoor in May, here in Amarillo.  In June there are matches in Austin, Dallas, OKC and Albuquerque.  July is Camp Perry and then everything dries up until September and October because of the heat. September is the Red River Regional in Wichita Falls and OKC usually runs a big match in October.  If I had at least twenty Texas shooters who would obligate to show up for an iron-sight match, we could fit it in somewhere but it would be nice if someone would step up to run it, so maybe I could shoot it. Wink  And it would be easier if we ran it as a Regional, rather than a state match.  But as I said, so far there is little interest.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by CR10X on 9/21/2016, 8:52 am

Two posts that provide some perspective on the underlying issues with matches and new divisions and what people want.  

Some people want a competition based on what they want to shoot because they want external competition. 

Match directors want to satisfy as many people as possible without much additional work (and maybe get a chance to shoot sometimes.)

Solution:

If you want a iron sight (or any other type of match not available at your local range) match, you probably need to set up and run said match. Then you can trade calling the match with the guy that was doing all the work for the other match. 

Otherwise, I'd simply suggest shooting what you want at the available match and competing against yourself as a much more productive path to improvement.  

Ain't that much difference between dots and irons anyway (irons are a little more challenging for older shooters, believe me, I know).  On the other hand, dots are probably the biggest single impediment to improvement for shooters below Expert as far as I can see (pun intended).  Simply put, dots keep shooters from learning how accurately shoot precision pistol by covering up the difference between wobble and sight alignment.

Then again, do whatever makes you happy.

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by Jack H on 9/21/2016, 9:13 am

I thought the Metallic shoots were for "growing the sport" for the bring what you got crowd.  On that "not competitive" line I could have given a "DUH!" back then because if you lower the standard of the gun without lowering the standard of the competition to the duffer level, it won't work.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by ted.carter.568 on 9/28/2016, 11:27 pm

The NRA Pistol Committee will be discussing the future of the Open, Metallic and Production Divisions at their upcoming meeting (Oct/Nov).  No decision has been made to date.  As an aside I run a State Championship and a Regional Match in Jacksonville, FL and have incorporated all three Divisions into our matches.  I've never had a Production Division entry, but have noted the number of Metallic Division entries increase over the past couple of years.

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by john bickar on 9/28/2016, 11:33 pm

ted.carter.568 wrote:The NRA Pistol Committee will be discussing the future of the Open, Metallic and Production Divisions at their upcoming meeting (Oct/Nov).  No decision has been made to date.  As an aside I run a State Championship and a Regional Match in Jacksonville, FL and have incorporated all three Divisions into our matches.  I've never had a Production Division entry, but have noted the number of Metallic Division entries increase over the past couple of years.

Honest question: can a "Metallic" shooter win the "Open" division in your matches? I don't know how it works.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by ted.carter.568 on 9/29/2016, 12:05 am

john bickar wrote:
Honest question: can a "Metallic" shooter win the "Open" division in your matches? I don't know how it works.

The simple answer is NO.  The more complex answer is maybe.  If there are sufficient shooters within a Class to have both Metallic and Open Division entries, and assuming the shooters do not change to another Division within the full match, then there will be an Open winner and a Metallic winner.  The highest score would be the match winner.  However, if an indiv shoots a match with a Metallic Pistol and changes in the next match to an Open Pistol, the indiv would then be added to the Open Div for the grand aggregate, and so the indiv could win the Open Div grand agg.

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by LenV on 9/29/2016, 12:10 am

I think things are simpler out West (Oregon). In all of our matches we shoot with/against shooters of our same classification. There is a note at the end of each shooters line if he/she is shooting open, metallic or 22 only. That is the only place it is noted. The match winner is whomever fires the highest score. I have no idea what would happen if a 22 only shooter was high shooter ( has never happened) but I suspect that they would still be the match winner. I also think if Mel decided to shoot metallic then he would win matches that way also. Not a big deal who wins. It's for fun. We only pay 12.00 for a 2700 and there are no prizes, payouts or awards of any kind. The reward is seeing if you can beat your last score or your shooting buddy. And an occasional target you can bring home and tack to the shop wall. Just my .02 worth.

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by CR10X on 9/29/2016, 6:30 am

This is not a hard question to answer.  

It depends on how the match awards are described in the match program. IF the match director takes the time to properly prepare the match program, he will specify the award schedule (type, number and conditions) as well as other items for the match.  See section 21 for the complete list of items that should be covered.  In general, a metallic shooter can win overall, if the procedures are followed per the match program (divisions to be combined for overall awards or that divisions and classifications are to be promoted if the minimum number for each is not reached and assuming the minimum number of metallic shooters is not reached).  Can a .22 only shooter win the 3 gun Aggregate Match?  No based on rule 22.2. 

A lot of people are under the assumption that anything in the rule book is "required", like the .22 Caliber Only Aggregate Match.  Closer reading of the rule book will show that many options are available for matches (see the lists for competitors, guns, types of matches, etc.).  The rule book simply provides the requirements to be followed IF certain matches or match options are to be used.  Competitors are to be familiar with the match program, (see section 18.2).  And if there are any questions, the competitor should bring them to the attention of the match director.  Sometimes things are just overlooked, or changed over the years from when the program was first drafted.  

For example at my matches, the position is specific as rule 5.5 (we do not do two hand provisional), awards are based on highest fired (all divisions combined).

We do not have the .22 Caliber Only Aggregate Match. Per the question above, a .22 only cannot win the regular match. If we had a .22 only match, that would entail another match bulletin, since they would be awarded separately from the regular course of fires. (See section 22.2)  And it would remove those shooter from making up the total available for awards for the regular match (see below as it takes 3 shooters per classification to qualify for awards). 

The .22 only shooters are encouraged to shoot the entire match, but only the scores for the .22 Aggregate are compiled for awards and classification.  Therefore they compete for awards for the .22 Match, but not the other matches. 

This serves several purposes, from only have to compile one match bulletin, to having a firing line where only the standards position is allowed (so as not to confuse new shooters) and actually maximizing the number of competitors per classification for awards. 

For the last item, having the match program specify all divisions to be combined (or basically all divisions promoted to open for awards ) for the individual classifications (Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, etc) makes it easier to have enough shooters in each class for for class awards (it takes 3 shooters to make up a class for awards or they are promoted to the next higher class).  

Using this arrangement, we can get as many shooters as possible into each class for awards (by Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, etc., regardless of division).  

Lets face it, if you were a Marksman metallic .22 shooter, would you rather be combined with a Expert and Master metallic .22 shooter for possible awards in a .22 only match; or would you rather be combined with 2 other Marksman shooters for potential awards?

This thread really shows how important it is to have a complete match program and to consider all the potential items when designing the match so as to maximize the options and shooter opportunities, without overworking your friendly, neighborhood Match Director. 

I'm sure that others have come up with other possibilities that work for the number of shooters and what they want from their matches.  

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by john bickar on 9/29/2016, 7:36 am

CR10X wrote:This is not a hard question to answer.  

..followed by 11 paragraphs' worth of explanation Laughing
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by cdrt on 9/29/2016, 8:03 am

john bickar wrote:
ted.carter.568 wrote:The NRA Pistol Committee will be discussing the future of the Open, Metallic and Production Divisions at their upcoming meeting (Oct/Nov).  No decision has been made to date.  As an aside I run a State Championship and a Regional Match in Jacksonville, FL and have incorporated all three Divisions into our matches.  I've never had a Production Division entry, but have noted the number of Metallic Division entries increase over the past couple of years.

Honest question: can a "Metallic" shooter win the "Open" division in your matches? I don't know how it works.

The answer is YES.  Open means "open" to any pistol/revolver...this is from the current rule book.

1. Open Division - Any semi-automatic handgun or revolver using any sights, including telescopic, are permitted with the exception of those sights that project an image on the target. Barrel length, including cylinder, not more than 10 inches. Firearm used in competition shall be serviceable and safe. All standard safety features of the firearm must operate properly. If any firearm is observed to be unserviceable or unsafe, it shall be withdrawn at the request of the tournament director.
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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by ted.carter.568 on 9/29/2016, 9:13 am

The NRA [Precision] Pistol rules allow a Match Director, via the match program to design a match that best supports his/her shooters and the interests of the hosting organization and provides guidance for running the match.  The "Division" concept was an opportunity, as was the .22 Only Aggregate, to offer up some new options to shooters and match sponsors.  Not to long ago, the Military Veteran Team and Individual were added to the rule book for match sponsors to recognize our participating military vets and perhaps welcome a few more new shooters to our sport.

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by CR10X on 9/29/2016, 10:11 am

John, the answer was simple.  It just takes 11 paragraphs to try and explain and not to offend anyone that that proposed a different answer, or maybe help those that confuse Metallic with the .22 Only Match.  And the NRA doesn't really help very much if you read the opening of Section 3.  If I ever get 3 or more shooters in the same class and division, I might change the program (fat chance of that happening at a local match.) But I do what I can to help sow confusion and mayhem as wide as possible.......

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

Post by MarkF45 on 10/21/2016, 12:55 am

I've been separating the metallic scores from the open scores, when I send in the match results to the NRA. A few people have gotten metallic classification cards, so when I have 3 or more of them in a match, they become their own class.

If a metallic shooter shot the highest aggregate score in the match, then yes, he would be the match winner. Not likely to happen anytime soon, since all of the metallic shooters so far have been marksmen.

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Re: The short lived "Metallic Sight" classifications....

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