Rules question.

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Rules question.

Post by Mike38 on 9/23/2016, 9:56 pm

Hello everyone. My first post here. A little boring note about myself, then on to my question.

Just got back into Bullseye after being off for 15+ years. Made Sharpshooter back then, just barely, with a Baikal IZH35M and a custom built Colt Series 70 .45acp. Age 57. Having more fun now because I'm not very serious about it. If I get 5 points more than the previous match, I'm thrilled. If I pull a shot out of the furthest scoring ring, I laugh about it. Hey, at least I can still call my shots. Anyhow.....

At a match 4 months ago, my second after my return to Bullseye, a very unusual thing happened. First time I'd ever shot at the place, it's about 150 miles from home, so I didn't know anyone there. Got signed up, got my score card, and was told to pick any empty spot on the firing line. First empty spot was #8, so that will do. There was a white repair dot on the bench with the number 8 marked on it in blue ink. Set my rug on the bench, my pistol box, and had a seat. After the first .22 slow fire target we walked out to score and change targets. My target, the one with a big red number 8 above it had 20 holes in it. (No, I don't use a spotting scope, so didn't know this happened until walking out to the target). I turned to the guy next to me and said, we have a minor problem. He looked at the number 8 target, then me, and told me I shot his target. Nope I said, you shot my target. Neither of us were mad, but one of us screwed up big time. The gentleman running the show walked out to see what was up. He told me that I was shooter 9, and I shot the wrong target, and my score would be zero. Then he told the guy next to me that his score would be the ten lowest shots of the 20 holes. This part I agree with. I walked back to my bench, raised up my rug on the bench, and someone had crossed out the number 8 on the top of the bench and wrote 9 on it. So sometime after I had read the number 8 and covered it with my rug, someone changed the number.

I find no ruling on this. There may not even be one. But the bottom line is, I shot the wrong target, I guess. But what would be the official ruling on this, say if it happened at Camp Perry?

I'm not upset in any way, just curious as to what a correct ruling should be. My guess is, I got and deserved that zero.

Mike38

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Re: Rules question.

Post by Wobbley on 9/23/2016, 10:05 pm

Range alibi. When they changed the number they should have told you. Particularly when your stuff was visibly obscuring the remarked sticker,

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Re: Rules question.

Post by mspingeld on 9/24/2016, 9:04 am

and the rule on crossfires is: the target is scored for both the lowest 10 and highest 10, then the shooter can accept the lowest 10 or refire the target BUT, he cannot get a score higher than the highest 10 of the original target.

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Re: Rules question.

Post by SteveT on 9/24/2016, 10:59 am

Never heard of such a thing. A strict interpretation of the rules would say that you get zero and the other shooter gets the lowest 10 and can re-fire, not scoring higher than the top 10. But basic decency says it should be a range alibi and both of you re-shoot the target. If they changed the target numbers after people arrive and start setting up, they should have made sure everyone knew it.
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Re: Rules question.

Post by BE Mike on 9/24/2016, 1:04 pm

It sounds like you got caught in a good ole boy situation. If the number 8 was on your bench and you shot target #8, you should have gotten a refire. It should be a range alibi, because somebody who set up the range screwed up. Both of you should have been allowed to refire. The homeboy got preferential treatment. Stuff like that at local matches will turn new shooters off in a heartbeat. I sure wouldn't want to shoot at that match. Glad you took it all in stride. I'd probably have packed up my gear and walked away.
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Re: Rules question.

Post by Mike38 on 9/24/2016, 2:25 pm

It sounds like you got caught in a good ole boy situation.

Well, now that you mention it, the guy next to me is a regular there, he's a member of that range. It's a 25 yard "short course" range, everything shot at 25 yards. By the sounds of things, it's mainly for the locals to get classified incase they want to compete at other locations. Kind of the reason I went there, to get my classification again, and do it on a short course to kind of ease myself back into Bullseye. In two weeks is the final match for the year there, and I may mention what I learned here to the guy that runs the show.

Then in November, weather permitting, they are having an all 50 yard, all slow fire match as kind of a fun day to close out the year. 30 shots .22, 30 shots centerfire, and 30 shots .45acp, all at 50 yards. Might be fun.

Thanks to all for the replies.

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Re: Rules question.

Post by cdrt on 9/24/2016, 5:16 pm

Mike38 wrote:
It sounds like you got caught in a good ole boy situation.

Well, now that you mention it, the guy next to me is a regular there, he's a member of that range. It's a 25 yard "short course" range, everything shot at 25 yards. By the sounds of things, it's mainly for the locals to get classified incase they want to compete at other locations. Kind of the reason I went there, to get my classification again, and do it on a short course to kind of ease myself back into Bullseye. In two weeks is the final match for the year there, and I may mention what I learned here to the guy that runs the show.

Then in November, weather permitting, they are having an all 50 yard, all slow fire match as kind of a fun day to close out the year. 30 shots .22, 30 shots centerfire, and 30 shots .45acp, all at 50 yards. Might be fun.

Thanks to all for the replies.
If you plan to mention it to him, download the rule book and copy the sections on refires and range alibis.  Given how they ruled, it sounds like they go by what they think the rules are, not what what the book says.
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Re: Rules question.

Post by james r chapman on 9/24/2016, 7:03 pm

Neither of you scoped the target? How unusual.
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Re: Rules question.

Post by BE Mike on 9/26/2016, 11:47 am

james r chapman wrote:Neither of you scoped the target? How unusual.
I don't find it all that unusual. Not everyone scopes each shot at matches. Some of us, if the first shot is on call, just go with it.
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Re: Rules question.

Post by CR10X on 9/26/2016, 3:28 pm

I was waiting for someone to quote the appropriate part of the rules.  From the description given, this falls under the sections related to the range standards and the competitor would file a protest if he considered the number was changed without his knowledge or after being assigned the position. The competitor "challenges" the scoring of a target and "protests" conditions or conduct of the match. 

6.2 Firing Point - That part of the range provided for the competitor immediately in the rear of the firing line from which firing takes place. Each firing point is numbered to correspond with the target frames. Each firing point should have a minimum width of 4 feet. 

6.6 Target Numbers - Target frames will be numbered on alternating background of contrasting color. The numbers will be large enough to be identified under ordinary light conditions. Numbers must correspond with the firing point numbers. Target numbers will be fixed in position so as to remain visible when the targets are exposed and when concealed. 

16.2 Protests - A competitor may formally protest: 

(a) Any injustice which is felt has been done except the evaluation of a target, which may be challenged as outlined in Rule 16.1. 
(b) The conditions under which another competitor has been permitted to fire. 
(c) The equipment which another competitor has been permitted to use.

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Re: Rules question.

Post by MarkF45 on 10/21/2016, 1:03 am

I've had a bunch of screwups at my match, but fortunately we've never had THAT problem!

Common decency would call for a range alibi and both people shoot it over. Especially with a new shooter.

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Re: Rules question.

Post by sklarcpa on 10/21/2016, 11:06 am

BE Mike wrote:
james r chapman wrote:Neither of you scoped the target? How unusual.
I don't find it all that unusual. Not everyone scopes each shot at matches. Some of us, if the first shot is on call, just go with it.



Except none were on at all. 

I would have been scoping my first shot at a minimum and gone from there
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Re: Rules question.

Post by BE Mike on 10/21/2016, 4:41 pm

sklarcpa wrote:
BE Mike wrote:
james r chapman wrote:Neither of you scoped the target? How unusual.
I don't find it all that unusual. Not everyone scopes each shot at matches. Some of us, if the first shot is on call, just go with it.



Except none were on at all. 

I would have been scoping my first shot at a minimum and gone from there
I would have as well, but the OP said he didn't scope at all and maybe the cross fire shooter scoped the first shot and continued shooting without scoping. I still think it's not all that unusual for some shooters to not scope at all. I've shot most of my good slow fires by only scoping the first shot.
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