New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

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New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by bmac on 11/10/2016, 12:49 pm

Has anyone used the MantisX? http://mantisx.com/ It looks promising and is at a pretty good price point.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by r_zerr on 11/10/2016, 3:45 pm

This appears to only be some form of a velocity and accellerometer that hooks onto your pistol and does not take any positional error into account.  The output is some dumb-down form of common errors based on your shot placement, which itself is not a reliable guide to solving problems.

The Scatt, Rika, and Noptel systems actually monitor full time vs. movement relative to where you are aiming, with a very reliable prediction of where your shot would hit based on your hold and movement. The Scatt, Rika, and Noptel units show your movement, your hold, can replay individual shots for analysis, and even evaluate your follow through. Although these systems don't try to tell you things like you are jerking, it can be visually noted in the hold/shot trace, which it appears is non-existent in the MantisX.

I can tell you that the SCATT, Noptel, and Rika systems are very valuable training aids, and will work, and if used are worth the money in terms of ammo not used and travel time to the range since they can be used at home.

I would recommend  that you spend your money on something other than the MantisX.

-Ron

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 11/11/2016, 3:45 am

Austin from Mantis here.

Yes, MantisX is accelerometer/gyroscope based rather than IR-based (like Noptel, etc.).  So it doesn't try to replicate your target, but does the same movement analysis.  

MantisX does have the tracing pattern in addition to the aforementioned features.  We have a Noptel that we put on firearms simultaneously with a MantisX to verify and validate such traces.  The Noptel currently looks at a larger window of time (but we are extending that with a free app update), but the traces are very similar.

MantisX is wireless (bluetooth), and weighs very little (about 1 ounce total). 

Happy to answer any other questions you may have.

Cheers,
Austin

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Chris Miceli on 11/11/2016, 5:24 am

Other systems are out there like the Trace or Beamhit...no experience with either
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by bdas on 11/15/2016, 12:24 pm

MantisAustin wrote:Happy to answer any other questions you may have.

Is there any way to attach it to a pistol that does not have a picatinny rail on the dust cover?

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by desben on 11/15/2016, 3:32 pm

bdas wrote:Is there any way to attach it to a pistol that does not have a picatinny rail on the dust cover?

+1

I'd buy one if there was a version you could attach to a 1911, Ruger or revolver, without a rail under the barrel. Even if that means you can only dryfire. If it clipped under the grip, you could possibly live-fire. With a Ruger or revolver, it could attach to the barrel with an elastic band and still live fire.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 11/15/2016, 3:53 pm

bdas wrote:Is there any way to attach it to a pistol that does not have a picatinny rail on the dust cover?

Yes.  As long as it is securely fixed to the firearm, it will work.  Unfortunately, elastic bands dampen the vibration patterns too much.

For 1911s, we like the ones adapters that Recover Tactical makes: recovertactical.com

We also offer adapters that replace the existing magazine base plate with a rail adapter on it: mantisx.com/collections/rail-adapters - there are only a few now, but we are in the process of designing dozens of others.

Cheers!
Austin

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/3/2017, 3:44 pm

I ordered a MantisX, got it today, mounted it easily on my 1911 rail and have been playing with it for just a bit.  Nicely put together little kit and pretty easy to set up.

First thing I noticed is that I don't immediately see the use of anything except the target trace screen for Bullseye training and that it needs a longer time trace before and after the shot.  A split second of trace before, during, and after the shot falls is not enough to tell everything you need to know about your shot process.

Second thing I noticed was tightening my finger tips a hair more than I had been stabilized my shot more.

Third was that moving my trigger finger 1/8" more over the trigger gave me a cleaner trigger release.   Smile

It has some potential as a "budget SCATT", but I need more time with it than just fooling around this afternoon.  This system DOES NOT generate scores from a target or tell you where the shot fell, just displays a trace on the app screen.  It is green just before the shot, then the trigger pull is yellow,and follow through is red.  The yellow part of the trace starts at the center of the onscreen target, so you get to see if your X stayed an X.

I think this is going to be a good help for dryfiring at home and I am curious to see how it does on the range.

I give it a hopeful thumbs up, with some understanding of the limitations and that I haven't messed with it much.  I'll report back again or maybe start a separate thread about it once I have more time with it.  I can already tell, I need more mountings!

-update- The other screens are useful after all, it just was not immediately obvious.   Smile When you have a longer string of shots and use them as a diagnostic tool AFTER dry firing/shooting with the trace, they can give you some feedback.


Last edited by willnewton on 2/3/2017, 5:13 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : update)
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Aprilian on 2/3/2017, 3:56 pm

If a good shooter's trigger pull does not upset the gun.... how does does the Mantis differentiate between the hold (green) and start of trigger pull (yellow) by using an accelerometer?


Last edited by Aprilian on 2/3/2017, 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/3/2017, 4:26 pm

Maybe it is timed based on hammer click vibration?
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Aprilian on 2/3/2017, 5:13 pm

Perhaps to test...  Start and abort a trigger pull and see what the unit interprets it as?
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 2/4/2017, 12:58 am

Aprilian wrote:If a good shooter's trigger pull does not upset the gun.... how does does the Mantis differentiate between the hold (green) and start of trigger pull (yellow) by using an accelerometer?

Currently, it's time-based.  The green is 0.5 seconds, the yellow is 0.25 seconds just preceding the shot.  The score in the app is based on how much movement occurs during the "yellow" section of time (0.25 sec).

MantisX wasn't originally designed for bullseye shooters, but enough have been using it for such that we'll be pushing out an update in the future that will lengthen the period of time you want to look at (similar duration to SCATT, Noptel, etc.).

Cheers!
Austin

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/4/2017, 7:20 am

To further clarify for Aprilian, this does not give you a "watchable" live trace. 

 No trace is displayed until after triggering-another feature that needs changing, so you can't practice simply holding the gun steady.  You have to fire.  It will not record a trace if you move too much or have the gun sideways or upside down.  It seems to want you to be in a state of "aiming to fire".

The .75 sec. trace is just enough for most noob trigger banging and quick diagnostic, but too short for actual target shooting feedback.  It is seems ridiculous that you cannot choose a longer trace time or at least unlock an "expert" mode to have more options.  I would almost guess that MantisX has intentionally kept this time short to improve tracking output performance and not present too much information for an inexperienced shooter to handle.

You can't store but one gun setup.

You can't delete a shot from your shot string without starting over.

The diagnostics don't quite relate to singlehanded shooting.  Ex. You get diagnosed with "heeling" because you are pushing too much with your supporting hand.  What supporting hand?  Laughing

There is no cloud connection in the app, so your ipad at home or iphone on the range cannot talk to each other about shot history, gun setups, or user profiles (which don't exist, but should so you can track more than one user).

The website has no online support section or FAQ or anything to help AFTER purchase, just marketing for potential buyers and a link to click for email support.  Granted, it is super easy to set up, but how long does the battery last?  How long to charge?  Are there firmware updates?  Where is the section on the website for USERS, not buyers?

I am not 100% sure how I feel about this thing yet.  I am glad to see this thread is being watched by MantisX.  So far, I am not feeling like I can give this a 100% positive review from the aspect of target shooting for Bullseye.  It does work on the hardware end, but feels new and underdeveloped on the software feature side vs. the information rich SCATT and Noptel, etc. systems.

Maybe you have heard the phrase "damned by faint praise" and I don't want that to be the case here.  I just think this cookie needs more baking in the oven.  I do like it.  It does work.  It is real and not vaporware.  I did sit down and practice dry firing with it for a good bit last night and feel like it does a decent job of tracking your trace.  I would absolutely recommend this to a brand new pistol shooter or to a local range for teaching.

I just need more target shooting features to give that same recommendation to Bullseye shooters.  Hopefully, these improvements will see implementation in the future, as it is just a software upgrade away. 

 In the meantime, I am leaving it on the gun and will keep using it.  I also still want to take it to the range for live fire.

  Is the MantisX perfect? No, but I am optimistic that improvements will come.  Is it useful as is? Yes, with understanding of limitations on target shooting.

Perhaps Austin will chime in, add more information, correct me if I misstated anything, or give some hints about where the MantisX is headed.  I don't want my quick review to be taken negatively by MantisX, but as a guideline to how the needs of Bullseye shooters can be better fulfilled.

-update-there is multiple gun storage in app, see next few posts


Last edited by willnewton on 2/4/2017, 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added an update)
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 2/4/2017, 9:47 am

Thanks for the feedback!  We love it.  MantisX wasn't originally designed for bullseye shooters in mind, but we're happy to build out the features to accommodate.  A few notes on your comments:

1) Extended time tracking is coming.  Most shooters don't know how to make heads or tails of a longer trace, which is why we default to a shorter period.  But all the data is in the app - it's just a question of building out the right interface for it.

2) Multi-gun support is currently in the app.  If you're having any issues with setting that up, let me know.

3) Ability to delete a shot will be coming

4) The whole cloud component (porting data, multi-user support, etc.) is coming.  We have an internal version we're beta testing now.

5) You're right - we need to do a better job on the website of providing after-purchase support.  To answer the questions here:  battery takes about 2 hours to charge and lasts about 8 hours on a full charge.  There aren't firmware updates on this edition of the hardware, but lots of frequent software updates (all free, in-app).

Thank you for the detailed review, including the limitations of MantisX for certain purposes.  The last thing we want is for someone to buy it expecting something other than what it is!

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/4/2017, 11:00 am

Austin, that all sounds great and you are headed in the right direction for sure. I appreciate that you took my critique as constructive and optimistic, just as it was meant.

Glad to know about the charging time and battery duration as well. It sounds like more than enough and I have already found it no trouble to use a USB wall adapter, laptop port, and car cigarette lighter adapter, so no trouble to get it charged most anywhere.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/4/2017, 11:09 am

MantisAustin wrote:2) Multi-gun support is currently in the app.  If you're having any issues with setting that up, let me know.

I see how it works now.  I was expecting the new gun to show up on the settings page and it added in the Arsenal category found when you click on the current gun.  I was just running through it quickly and thinking about "Springfield" and "Dan Wesson" and blew right past the first listing, which is my personal Arsenal.  That was my fault for not paying attention.

BTW that list of available firearms to choose from is looooooooooooong (good job!) and easily customizable for make, model, caliber too if you need to add or modify something.

Also would like to give a nod to MantisX for the in-app quick tutorial when the app first runs.  It is good to not need a manual to get to the meat of using the MantisX, but I would still like a more advanced user manual available online.  There is a sheet of simple instructions included as well.

Lastly, there is also a CO2 setting, which I hope to try on my air pistol some time in the future.  You tell the app how the MantisX is mounted, so you can mount it on a top rail too.

PS-I have had no apparent software/hardware issues on iPad Air, iPad Pro, and iPhone5s, and MantisX app using iOS 10.2.1
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Magload on 2/4/2017, 2:19 pm

Now you have gotten me interested in this product.  I wonder since it mounts on a rail if it could be used with the adapter SCATT has that fits into the barrel and has a rail on it?  Don

Update they use different rail sizes but I am sure I can make a work around.  I did order a MantisX and one of the barrel plug adapters.  Kind of wish I would have just waited and bought the Scatt MX-02 as and probably will this coming week.  I can still use the MantisX for dryfire as there is a lot less envolves in setup and use.  I already put the app on my phone and thing it will really be a help at my lvl of shooting.  Don
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/6/2017, 2:42 pm

I have dry fired like crazy the past few days!  This is a not too bad piece of kit.  It is humbling to say the least.  I think anyone that first uses a diagnostic tool of this nature (visual trace) will be pretty surprised at what is revealed.

You don't know what you don't know and some things you just have to see to understand.  I understand in a way I never could before the difference in a shot that scores a 75.6 and a shot that scores a 99.7 (my record shot so far).  Night and day!  I have learned more in the past few days about what is going on at the end of the gun than I have ever imagined.  

I have heard some version of it a million times, but have seen with my own eyes the evidence that there is only one simple truth to Bullseye greatness-  The trigger movement needs to start and finish while the sights remain at your highest scoring point of aim.

Here is a screenshot composite of two shots.  The green shows the setup and then the yellow reveals the start and finish of triggering and then the red follow through.  You can see that both shots start off OK and I get on the trigger at a decent center point on both.  What happens in the next split second is what cost 24 points.  Let me know if you can see it.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by jbzeus on 2/6/2017, 3:25 pm

Can/how do you hook this up to a 1911 with a dot? How about to a Parisi SP new?

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Wobbley on 2/6/2017, 4:30 pm

Looks like you anticipated the shot and put it at 1:00.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Magload on 2/6/2017, 9:06 pm

Is that the MX-02 you are using?  I downloaded the software today and installed it so I could look at available targets.  I emailed Scatt and they got right back to me and provided the download.  I am having problems printing targets, I think, as they are printing in the upper left corner and cutting off the left side.  I am very close to clicking the buy button just waiting on their reply on this problem.  Don
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/6/2017, 10:51 pm

jbzeus wrote:Can/how do you hook this up to a 1911 with a dot?  How about to a Parisi SP new?
Well, funny you should ask.  I gave it a try on my dotgun.  If your rail will allow, you can mount it in front of your dot and as expected it blocks about half your view.  It might fit behind your dot or if have an ext. tube, it might need removing.  Whether your X gun and X scope at X mounting location combo will allow it, I hate to guess.

To deal with dot/Mantis conflict you could:

1. Change your hold point so the dot sits above the MantisX.  Didn't like this so much, but you can do it.

2. Just split the target in half and shoot it.  Not too bad, but not too good.

3. Open both eyes and look at the target through the scope.  Your brain will mix the signal from each eye together and give you an output depending on what are looking at.  If you are looking at the dot, you see the Mantis unit.  If you are looking at the target (as Brian Zins recommends) the Mantis mostly disappears as your non scoped eye fills in the rest of the target circle.  It is an optical illusion that really gives you food for thought about how perception is processed in the brain.  It wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed the Xray vision effect.

4.  Just put a piece of masking tape over front of the scope.  It has been well established that you don't always need a target to practice.

5.  Close your eyes and get your dry fire on.  I am sure everyone has tried this, but with the trace you can see what you did.  I am going to try that tomorrow.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 2/7/2017, 12:14 am

Wobbley wrote:Looks like you anticipated the shot and put it at 1:00.
Yep.  I saw a pretty shot developing, snatched at it, and the result was a trigger move that did not stop at the same location I started it.

But how about the 99.7?  I make bad shots all the time, but what did it take to gain 24 points in that shot?  According some HM's this is the shot we should study and disregard shots of low quality.

@Don, I was discussing the MantisX that I ordered, not the MX-02.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by CR10X on 2/7/2017, 7:44 am

As this is the Fundamentals section, I think the important part part of using this tool has not been discussed yet.

Did you see what the trace showed?

If you saw it, then why did the shot go off?

If you didn't see it, how can you keep it from happening again?

If you didn't see the good shot developing, how can you repeat that performance?

Just some questions to ponder. I'm on vacation and my second Bloody Mary just arrived. Talk to you all later......

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Magload on 2/7/2017, 7:49 am

I have one of those on order and looking at your target I think the MantisX might just do for me.  I just can't seam to justify $1700 as I will never be shooting a big match.  The Scatt MX=02 is totally awesome but maybe way more data then I need.  Don
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

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