New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

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New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by bmac on 11/10/2016, 12:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

Has anyone used the MantisX? http://mantisx.com/ It looks promising and is at a pretty good price point.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Wobbley on 2/7/2017, 9:16 am

D
willnewton wrote:
Wobbley wrote:Looks like you anticipated the shot and put it at 1:00.
Yep.  I saw a pretty shot developing, snatched at it, and the result was a trigger move that did not stop at the same location I started it.

But how about the 99.7?  I make bad shots all the time, but what did it take to gain 24 points in that shot?  According some HM's this is the shot we should study and disregard shots of low quality.

@Don, I was discussing the MantisX that I ordered, not the MX-02.
The 99.7 shot had a more stable wobble, at least in one direction.  The other shot was wobbling in two directions.  Psychologically this is perceived as more wobble when it may not be.  The key here is to learn to accept the wobble.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by bdas on 3/16/2017, 7:28 am

Does the MantisX unit have to be attached so that it sits vertically?  Or could it be mounted sitting at an angle?

In particular, for guns with a full-length top rail, could you mount it on an offset rail adapter?  These offset rail adapter thingys are made for mounting flashlights or small red dots to the top of an AR without blocking the view through the scope, but seem like a viable solution for solidly mounting the MantisX to a pistol with some extra top rail space, in such a way that it doesn't block the view through the red dot.  The obvious disadvantage is that now the gun is slightly unbalanced (side-to-side), but that might not be a big deal if everything is light enough.

One example of one of an offset rail adapter can be seen here:
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/577394/weaver-tactical-offset-picatinny-accessory-rail-matte

Or, more generally, from a Google search for "picatinny offset rail adapter" will show lots of pics and links to them:
[url=https://www.google.com/search?q=picatinny offset rail adapter]https://www.google.com/search?q=picatinny%20offset%20rail%20adapter[/url]

Dave

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 3/16/2017, 9:13 am

Not sure on the angled mount.  I think it would work, but might throw off some of the diagnostics, due to the angle.

In the software you can choose forward or backward and top, bottom, left, and right mountings, but not 45°.

Another feature request for Austin!

They can also add a Hammerli 215 .22lr to the gun list.  I machined a custom nose weight that has a rail mount for the Mantis.

I have tried some live fire with the 215/Mantis combo and it had trouble picking up some shots, but works fine for dry fire.

I am still waiting for that shot delete feature to be added.  I am getting so ticked off about it, because the Mantis occasionally picks up slide cycling and ruins shot strings with scores of 20-30 for cycling.  It is damn near unforgivable to have such an important feature missing.

How can you track improving your averages when you get shafted for simply cycling the gun?  I don't care that the Mantis picks up the cycling, I care that it ruins my shooting averages and makes all the training history features nearly useless, because there is no delete feature and the scores are not reflecting your actual triggering.

The Mantis is working as a training device, but the more I use it, the better I get, and the more upset I am every time I get thrown a 25.  Yeah, I'm kinda pissed about it.  It's like I bought a really nice car that has no reverse gear.  Sure you can drive it, but...
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 3/16/2017, 10:46 am

Thanks for the feedback!  A few comments:

1) 45 degree mount won't work at this point.  We can make accommodations in the software on a future release, but keep it at 90 degrees for now (on any side/plane).

2) Shot deletion is coming!  Soon.  Very soon.  Along with that will be a "bullseye mode" update showing 3 seconds before the shot, and 1 second after (different from the 0.75 before currently in the app).  If you're getting some false positives, pointing the gun down while racking will eliminate that.

3) For the Hammerli 215 live fire, you can take some data using the "MantisX Data Recorder" app available in the app store.  Sending that to use will feed our algorithms the data they need for improved shot detection there.

Thanks for the feedback (and your patience!).

Cheers!
Austin

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Magload on 3/16/2017, 11:00 am

My MantisX is so much easier to use then my SCATT Basic.  I like both and maybe I will get better at calibrating the SCATT.  I either point the gun stright down or up and then racking the slide doesn't trigger the mantis.  Don
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 3/16/2017, 12:33 pm

I know Don, but having to hold it in just the right way to rack it is not part of my shot plan.  It reminds me of how there were antenna problems on an earlier release of the iPhone and the corporate reply was to "hold it correctly" rather than fix the actual antenna issue.

OK, Austin I trust that you are taking care of it.  It was a minor annoyance initially, but the more I use the Mantis, the better my triggering and the more frustrated I get with a false read.

  It is a bit funny to complain about a missing feature that gets more annoying because the Mantis is doing a pretty good job at helping me get better. Laughing
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by mspingeld on 3/16/2017, 12:44 pm

So, is there a way to mount this on a 1911 with no rib? The mag base plate sounds good but I don't see one for the 1911.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 3/16/2017, 12:53 pm

The mag base plates for 1911 Wilson Combat magazines (both 9mm and .45) will be available in about 10 days.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by bdas on 3/16/2017, 1:05 pm

MantisAustin wrote:1) 45 degree mount won't work at this point.  We can make accommodations in the software on a future release, but keep it at 90 degrees for now (on any side/plane).

So, would something like these 90-degree rail adapters definitely work with the MantisX?
    This one is 1.37" long - https://www.amazon.com/Profile-Tactical-Picatinny-Weaver-Degree/dp/B007AO0SPQ
    This one is 2.16" long - https://www.amazon.com/Lion-Profile-Tactical-Picatinny-Weaver/dp/B00M3F1H8Y/
I'm not sure how long of a rail section the MantisX needs. I didn't see any specs on the the website.

I'm also wondering if I could see the dot under/through an extra-high riser mount like this:
http://www.opticsplanet.com/leapers-utg-super-slim-picatinny-riser-mounts.html?_iv_code=LP-T8-SSPRM-MT-RSX1S
or through an empty rail-topped scope ring, like this:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/barska-30-mm-low-tactical-rings-with-1-inch-inserts?a=859871&pm2d=CSE-SPG-15-PLA&utm_medium=PLA&utm_source=Google&utm_campaign=CI&gclid=CJPclOfL29ICFVyBswod-qgP7g
Those have the advantage of not upsetting the side-to-side weight balance.
Would it cause any problems if the MantisX is mounted 2-3 inches above the barrel?

I have two pistols that I use for bullseye shooting.  Neither has a rail section under the barrel, but both have full-length top rails with red dots mounted on them.  Right now, the #1 reason I don't own a MantisX, is because I haven't seen a usable way to mount it on my bullseye pistols (and move it between those 2 pistols, so I don't think attaching to the bottom of a spare magazine is a great solution for me).  The #2 reason is accommodations / practicality for training for bullseye shooting, such as the longer trace times, and various usability concerns raised in this thread.  If those things can get resolved, I will buy one.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 3/16/2017, 1:22 pm

Yes, any of the adapters you linked to will work fine with MantisX.

Note:  MantisX weights less than an ounce (for any weight offset decisions).

The longer trace times and shot deletion will be out soon.  Never soon enough. Smile

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Magload on 3/16/2017, 2:04 pm

I have a short rail that mounts to the scope tube so it can be turned either right of left.  Also made a adapter that will mount to SCATT's barrel plug adapter.  Don
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 3/16/2017, 7:40 pm

Those scope mount rings look like a great way to go for dry fire on a non-railed gun.  The 90° mount as well.  As light as the Mantis is, I dont think you would have trouble with weird balance issues.  I'd say anything with three slots is long enough.

I bet they would work fine for live fire on a non-cycling rail mount for a .22, but will the Mantis survive riding the slide on a .45 rib?  Would it damage the Mantis?  Throw off the calibration?  Affect the slide cycling?  I dont know, but is something to consider.  Maybe Austin can comment before someone voids their warranty.  Wink
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by oldsalt444 on 3/17/2017, 3:31 pm

I would definitely buy MantisX, if it were made with bullseye shooting in mind. These comments make sense and Austin seems to be listening.  The biggest hardware issue is putting it on guns without pic rails. Bullseye guns just don't have a need for those. How would you mount one on a S&W 41 or a revolver? Some type of barrel clamp I guess like the SCATT.  Mantis is onto something here and should cater to the bullseye market. We are serious accuracy hounds always trying to improve our scores. Listening, Austin?
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Jack H on 3/17/2017, 4:40 pm

I tried a few shots at Gun Pro (Springfield OR) with Neal's Glock.  It didn't tell me anything I didn't also see in the sights.  Maybe the measurable degree of sight movement becomes useful at the very top end of very good shots where a measurement is finer than what your eye can detect.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Ed Hall on 3/17/2017, 5:35 pm

Jack H wrote:I tried a few shots at Gun Pro (Springfield OR) with Neal's Glock.  It didn't tell me anything I didn't also see in the sights.  Maybe the measurable degree of sight movement becomes useful at the very top end of very good shots where a measurement is finer than what your eye can detect.
You'd be surprised what your eye can detect.  And, the greatest thing I believe my Rika taught me was how to "see" what was happening via my sights.

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Jack H on 3/17/2017, 5:52 pm

Ed, I agree with your point.  I shot the dry fires that day without my sight seeing lens, and the Glock trigger was real bad compared to KC's Ax handle set.  Still I saw everything the smartphone reported even into the high scores area.  High 90s if I recall.  What I meant was the device might show the difference between a 98 and a 100.  But my eye may not without the perfect lens and lighting.  There is another thing in acceptance of what I see.  What I see in the sight I might call as good as I can get while the device can still put numbers to it.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Joe L on 3/20/2017, 6:38 am

I bought a MantisX last week and got to try it out in dry fire and live fire over the weekend.  There are three videos here.

MantisX tests

Overall, I am very happy with the device, looking forward to updates to the app specifically for bullseye practice, but, for the price, I think will be a useful training aid. 

Note that I have some back problems and was not using my usual bullseye gun in these videos.

Joe

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 3/20/2017, 8:40 am

Yes, we're listening. Keep the feedback coming!  Bullseye mode is VERY close to being released (it's good on iPhone, tech team is just making some final tweaks on Android).

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 3/22/2017, 9:10 am

Joe, I watched some of your videos and like what you found in the live fire session about the correlation between Mantis score and target score.  (Starts around the 6:00 mark in the live fire video)

Scoring-wise, it is not an exact match, but is not far off either.  The Mantis is not designed for "scoring" like a SCATT, but as your video shows it will diagnose "quality of triggering".  Your video makes it obvious that high quality triggering shown by a high Mantis score will almost naturally result in a higher target score and a poor Mantis trigger score will be reflected in the target score as well.

The video with you shooting a 100 from a rested gun fun was to see.  I have shot some 98-99's offhand, but not often, so I think that speaks to just how focused and under control the pistol needs to be to really reach out and grab the X.

Ed and Jack's comments about how this type of training can helps with "seeing" what is going on are very accurate.  I think a lot of us train in a vacuum and have little hands-on instruction.  Self-learning this way takes time and effort, especially if you are a newer shooter and are not quite sure how to process what you are looking at vs. what you are "seeing". 

Another benefit is "feeling".  You learn to recognize what a high quality vs. low quality shot feels like when you trigger one.  You start to find that many times, you don't even need to look at the Mantis software to know you just shot a 95+ score and sadly, seldom need to check one scoring in the low 80's or less either.
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by MantisAustin on 3/22/2017, 9:17 am

MantisX Update:  the long-awaited "bullseye mode" and the ability to delete shots has been pushed to the app stores.  So you should see that app update in the next day or so, if you haven't already.

So now you can start requesting the next thing. Smile

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by mspingeld on 3/22/2017, 9:19 am

The next thing: ETA on the 1911 magazine to mount the Mantis unit?

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Jack H on 3/22/2017, 9:45 am

mspingeld wrote:The next thing: ETA on the 1911 magazine to mount the Mantis unit?

How would a device mounted on the heel of the gun give you results the same significance as when mounted at the muzzle?
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by bdas on 3/22/2017, 12:43 pm

MantisAustin wrote:MantisX Update:  the long-awaited "bullseye mode" and the ability to delete shots has been pushed to the app stores.  So you should see that app update in the next day or so, if you haven't already.

So now you can start requesting the next thing. Smile

That's awesome news about bullseye mode and the ability to delete shots.  Thank you.

Does bullseye mode consist of more than a longer trace time?  If so, what does it include?

Will the MantisX survive being mounted to the slide of a .45 during live fire?  Using a scope ring that has a picatinny rail on top should allow me to use the red dot and should work fine for my .22 (top rail does not move with the slide), and will work fine for the .45 for dry firing, but I'm worried about mounting one there during live fire.  (I suppose the backup plan would be to use the 1911 magazine base plate, right?  If so, do you have a list of magazines that it will fit on?)

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by willnewton on 3/22/2017, 9:44 pm

MantisAustin wrote:So now you can start requesting the next thing. Smile

I got the update just now.  Who can delete a slide cycling score? THIS GUY!  Cool

Bullseye mode is cool!  That trace is looooooong.  I like it.  It is long enough that you write letters and numbers with it!

Thanks for listening Austin!  There are not many companies out there that do that anymore.
 
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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

Post by Joe L on 3/23/2017, 8:00 am

Just tried the new bullseye option.  Seems to work fine.  The trace time is almost too long, but maybe that is what i need to make myself calm done a little more prior to letting the hammer drop.  If I get a chance this evening, I'll make a short demo of the new features. 

Austin--can you post what the new trace times are and give us an idea of how the score is calculated?  Is the score calculated from the same time period as before the update?   

Also, I didn't notice any lag time in slow dry fire.  Maybe it will show up in rapid fire, don't know yet.

Really appreciate the shot delete feature addition also.    

Joe

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Re: New Dry Fire System / SCATT alternative?

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