Zins wobble from several years ago

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Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Jack H on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:16 pm

Cut and paste from BE-L 8-10 years ago


Alright I'll give it a shot.

First of all all the weight training in the world will not make a difference
to your wobble. All you need to be able to lift is the weight of the gun.
What will help more than anything is cardio. Not saying you need to run 3
miles a few time a week. All that is needed is a sensible cardio program. 20
minutes a session of elevated heart rate 3 times a week should be plenty.

Before I shoot a match I do some sort of cardio activity to elevate my
heart, but make sure I have time to settle down, shower and eat
something NOT heavy before I shoot.
That is not the end all fix all. Position is huge on the amount of wobble
and individual has. Somewhere between your arm straight out in front of you
and out to your side you will find a spot where your wobble is more circular
than up and down or side to side.

My dot never stops moving. There is always some movement. There is a point
where my dot is moving a lot less and that pont is a short period of time.
That point cannot be reached unless there is pressure on the trigger. That
pressure on the trigger will help to stablize the wobble. The triger cannot
be thought of as what makes the gun go bang but it needs to be though of as
part of the aiming process in which allows the dot to settle and let the
shot go. So back to the comment, "pretty sure most of us have good trigger
control."  I respectfully disagree and I can prove it if we are on the range
together sometime. In my shot process it takes the same amount of time,
within a second, every SF shot for the gun to leave the bench and the gun to
fire. This is because there is already pressure on the trigger before the
dot settles into the aiming black, then it starts the rearward pressure
which helps to stabilize the movement of the dot and allows the shot to
break. Too many shooters do not have that pressure on the trigger and wait
until the they see perfect sight alignment and perfect sight picture and
then start to squeeze the trigger. When they start to put pressure to the
rear the dot moves and then they stop the trigger movement. Then they wait
until they see it again and start the movement. The gun will never settle
well enough unless you initially put pressure to on the trigger and then as
it comes into the black build that pressure feeling the trigger move to the
rear allowing the shot to break.

All of this is so much easier with a trigger that rolls.
--
Brian Zins
www.brianzins.com

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by jmdavis on Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:57 pm

That's what he says in his class too. And it seems to work.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by joy2shoot on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:20 pm

Jack,
 
Thanks for reposting.  It was very helpful to me when I read that trigger control is an integral part of aiming and not a separate process.
 
Thomas

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by john bickar on Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:46 pm

Thanks, Jack. A refreshing change from the news of the past few days.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by chopper on Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:57 pm

Maybe this to do with this article a little. Like Zins says trigger control has a lot to do with it and should be mastered, I totally agree as I dry fire and it has helped me more than anything, also the other fundamentals are essential.
  What I'd like to know, it seems like when I use my 2mil dot inside at 50ft it seems the arc is moving more than with the 4mil dot. My thinking is I can control the arc more by using the smaller dot, but it seems to take more time to settle. Is this the problem with using the small dot, I do this with both slow and sustained fire. 
  My other thought was to try and cover the 9 or 10 ring with a dot and shoot it that way,which I haven't tried yet.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Wobbley on Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:14 pm

The small dot appears to amplify your movement because your eye concentrates on a smaller area. Similar in principle with shooting a dot reticle vs a standard crosshair in a riflescope against a black Bullseye.  The dot appears to give a larger movement because a quartering image is so much larger your eye needs to move and the image gets mentally damped.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by jmdavis on Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:38 pm

You could focus your eye on the target. I heard that from someone, sometime.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:55 pm

One thing I'd like to address is the lift and lowering of the shooting arm during shooting. I see many shooters just lift and shoot. No precision to it. I like to call it lazy shooting. In my very strong opinion I believe there is a precise firm lift, then a settle at maximum lift (above target) with momentary pause, and then a lower then settle into target. It's part of my shot plan. It's just as precise as trigger squeeze. If you just lift right to the black (aiming/solight picture) in my opinion, you will never settle and achieve a minimum wobble area hold. For those that want to just lift into the target international style, that is still a precise arm lift. So I guess what I'm trying to say is LEARN how to lift and settle into aiming area. It's just as critical as good trigger control.
Jon

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by joy2shoot on Mon Nov 28, 2016 6:23 pm

Jon,

Thanks for the insight.  Is there a particular point you start your trigger squeeze?  I have been starting mine at the begging of the 'second' settle (into the target).  But sometimes I think that is starting a little late.

Thanks,
Thomas

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:49 pm

I take up slack/pre-travel/1st stage at height of lift. I start squeezing as soon as I start lowering pistol. By the time I settle into target/aiming point half or more of trigger weight is already pulled. I find early shots to  almost always be better than late shot. By late I mean holding too long. Proper execution of fundamentals require commitment. Through training you gain confidence in early squeeze of trigger. You have to believe in how you are executing your early squeeze. So train at it and learn how to execute the shot like this before trying in a match, it does take practice. In training its ok to shoot early shots. Part of learning process.
Jon

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by C.Perkins on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:54 pm

For what it is worth;

No one mentions breathing or breath control during the lift above the target and then lowering to the target.

There is a natural position with your arm extended holding the pistol where you feel pretty rock solid which comes from your stance to the target.

As I lift the pistol in my proper stance, I am also inhaling and filling my rib cage, which in turn is raising the pistol above the target at the same time I have established my natural holding position.(all at the same time)

I exhale an amount of air which collapses your rib cage which in turn lowers your pistol into the target and at this time of exhaling is when I start to put pressure on the trigger.

When I am settled into the target from the exhale is when I hold my breath.
Generally have about 10 seconds to initiate the shot for slow fire and if it is rapid fire can still hold my breath all the way through.
Timed fire sometimes will catch a quick small inhale, the body just does it, sometimes I do not know that I did it  Laughing

Maybe everyone does this and it is just taken for granted.
Do not know but just wanted to throw it out there.

Clarence

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Ghillieman on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:15 pm

Due to the new .22 EIC requiring a lift during target exposure, and having shot at a few clubs where they do not want you raising your pistol above the target, I have changed my shot process to lift to the target. Makes it simple.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Jon Eulette on Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:32 pm

Okay my 2 cents again. Let's reverse engineer this. We can shoot 5 eic .22 matches a year. That's 5 SF & 5 TF & 5 RF targets or 150 rounds. If you shot 1 2700 a month for a year that's 72 SF & 72 TF & 72 RF targets a year or 3,240 rounds a year. I personally wouldn't let the .22 eic match govern how I trained for the other 99% of BE matches. I can only think of one person who was a 2650 shooter who used an international style lift who shot BE exceptionally well. So not trying to be argumentative Dan, but I try and look at what the best shooters do and emulate them. So I hope that works well for you Smile
Jon

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by jmdavis on Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:04 am

Jon and Clarence also bring up a few of more points from my notes of the Zins clinic. Use your breathing to help with raising the pistol, apply pressure before you are in the black, and early shots are almost always better than late shots. 

Because of all the 22 I shot over the past 2 years, I have had to learn some of this the hard way. Often with the 22 I have to raise the gun back up because the shot did not go off or I wasn't at my best hold when the gun was coming into the black. With the 22, its not so much of a problem. But with the 45 and the time from recoil recovery and driving the gun back to the target, having to raise it again just into the black hurts my shot process. 

Zins told us that you may shoot some 8's and 9's at 10 or 11 oclock in the process of learning. But he also told us that the results would average better that way. In my limited experience that advice was correct.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Ghillieman on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:25 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Okay my 2 cents again. Let's reverse engineer this. We can shoot 5 eic .22 matches a year. That's 5 SF & 5 TF & 5 RF targets or 150 rounds. If you shot 1 2700 a month for a year that's 72 SF & 72 TF & 72 RF targets a year or 3,240 rounds a year. I personally wouldn't let the .22 eic match govern how I trained for the other 99% of BE matches. I can only think of one person who was a 2650 shooter who used an international style lift who shot BE exceptionally well. So not trying to be argumentative Dan, but I try and look at what the best shooters do and emulate them. So I hope that works well for you Smile
Jon
Jon, unfortunately my work schedule does not allow me to make even one 2700 a month. This year, as was last year too, I was able to take PTO from work to attend Regional and State Championships, as well as Canton and Perry. As it turns out, due to work, I have made two 2700's and one 1800 monthly match this year. So my practice consists of the occasional dry fire and the rare range trip....

As such this is what I have noticed. Using the international lift at 50 gives me a solid, locked in feel on my arm. More so than with a lifting above the target and settling into the black, which has always resulted in a loose feel and a sort of pretzel shape motion of the dot. Currently I lift slowly and inhale, exhale slightly at the edge of the black which slows the dot, the exhale starts my trigger squeeze and a count down from 10, zero is my shot abort. This process has worked well this past year, my scores continue to increase and I even shot a 98 slowfire with the 45 at a Regional a few months ago.

2017 will be my third year where I take bullseye seriously and not just something to do that's fun, so I'm always learning.

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Re: Zins wobble from several years ago

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:42 pm

Cheers Dan! To shooting more next year and more 98's at 50!
Jon

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