Sorting cases

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Sorting cases

Post by Ghillieman on Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:31 pm

What is everyone's opinion on sorting 45 Auto cases by head stamp to shrink group size.
Is it worthwhile, does it actually work, has it been proven in a ransom rest, are there any articles on it?

Ghillieman

Posts : 260
Join date : 2012-02-15
Location : TEXAS

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Jon Eulette on Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:36 pm

I've heard it go both ways from experienced shooters/ransom guru's. At 25 yds doesn't matter. At 50 I've heard both yes and no answers. I built a pistol a few years ago for a gentlemen. Here are results he shared with me for 50yds.
Unsorted brass 200 lswc 1.75"
Sorted brass 200 lswc 1.5"
New brass 185 jhp 1.25 "

So how much effort and money do you want to spend?
Old brass isn't good for 50 yds.
Jon

Jon Eulette

Posts : 1160
Join date : 2013-04-15
Location : Southern Kalifornia

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by LenV on Sun Nov 20, 2016 2:58 pm

I always sort. Then ignore it when I go shooting. My OCD won't let me not sort but my practical side knows that it doesn't make any difference to me at my current skill level. I do use newer brass for the long line but whatever is in the que for the short line.

Len

LenV

Posts : 1729
Join date : 2014-01-25
Age : 66
Location : Oargun

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Wobbley on Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:33 pm

Sort,  newish cases for 50 yards by make.  Load them in sorted batches by number of times fired.

Sort 25yard and practice ammo by make.  WCC, WRA, W-W, WINCHESTER are all the same, TZZ & IMI, R-P & RA, Federal & FC.
This is for consistent zeros.

Wobbley

Posts : 635
Join date : 2015-02-13

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by orpheoet on Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:27 pm

I use new or once fired for 50 yards, sort by headstamp for 25 yards. I use the 25 yard stuff for 50ft indoors. My main reason for sorting is the flash hole size consistency. I prefer to use Winchester because they seem consistent, Federal has at least 2 sizes. My miscellaneous headstamp brass goes for practice or USPSA.Does ANY of this matter at my skill level, probably not. I like to think one day it might:)

orpheoet

Posts : 364
Join date : 2014-07-29
Age : 48
Location : Lakewood, Oh

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Taroman on Mon Nov 21, 2016 12:47 pm

LenV wrote:I always sort. Then ignore it when I go shooting. My OCD won't let me not sort but my practical side knows that it doesn't make any difference to me at my current skill level. I do use newer brass for the long line but whatever is in the que for the short line.

Len
Same as Len. Was taught to sort my brass when I was first learned to handload.

Taroman

Posts : 23
Join date : 2013-03-24

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by fc60 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:56 am

Greetings,

Yesterday at the Monday practice, the fellow next to me had two rounds that jammed his nice, new, match 45.

I took the two offending rounds home and measured them.

As loaded, they measured 0.476". A bit big for a match chamber.

Using a bullet puller, I next find the bullet measured 0.452". Within usual tolerance.

The brass case had wall thickness of 0.012"+. Doing some math, 0.452" + 2 x 0.012" = 0.476".

The brass is head stamped "AMERC".

I will advise my fellow shooter to discard all the AMERC in his loading tray.

In summary, yes, it does pay to sort by head stamp.

Cheers,

Dave

fc60

Posts : 91
Join date : 2011-06-11
Location : South Prairie, WA 98385

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by jglenn21 on Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:11 pm

A-Merc is notoriously bad brass in most calibers..

I acquired some in 38 super and they have to have a completely different setup  to work on my 550 than every other make I have used..  thin brass.

jglenn21

Posts : 557
Join date : 2015-04-07
Age : 68
Location : monroe , ga

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by rich.tullo on Tue Nov 22, 2016 1:43 pm

Practice rounds I do not sort. Match rounds I use new or 1x brass for long line and big matches. 

Once it is sorted its easy to keep up. I only use Starline Brass for matches and my mixed brass is comprised of Remington, Aquila, Magnus, and PMC which about measure about the same. I had some Glockerized 45Acp Federal Brass that messed up my Shizzy and now its in the big bucket of brass I do not use. For 38 special I use new Starline matches, 

I also use small primers for practice 45acp because I have an abundance of small primers. 

RT

rich.tullo

Posts : 589
Join date : 2015-03-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by John Dervis on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:06 pm

+1 on the Amerc brass.  Years ago I had a Les Baer wad gun that only jammed when using Amerc Brass. It would get stuck half way into the chamber.  After that happen several times, and I identified the problem, I now crush every Amerc case I come across. 

John

John Dervis

Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-08-29

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by John Dervis on Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:15 pm

I do not routinely sort my 45 cases but last season I needed to load some rounds for Perry.  Since I only needed a few hundred I thought I would try and sort by head stamp. I picked out Starline and Federal because I know I have quite a few of those that are once fired.  As an experiment, I measured every case for length and was kind of surprised to find that they were all different even within the same brand.  I went ahead and grouped them together by brand and closest length to get some consistency. I can't tell if it made a difference but I think to get the best results, I should only use new cases to insure they are the same.

John

John Dervis

Posts : 16
Join date : 2012-08-29

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by dronning on Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:51 pm

I have a ton of Federal brass and I don't pick up any brass that hits the ground.  I do not sort but when I put my loaded rounds bullet down into the blue cartridge case if there is anything other than Federal showing I pull it out and toss it into the practice bin marked misc. cases.  I leave those practice cases at the range for someone else.

- Dave

dronning

Posts : 1122
Join date : 2013-03-20
Age : 63
Location : Lakeville, MN

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by JIMPGOV on Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:14 am

I DID A LOT OF RANSOM REST TESTING IN THE PAST. I PERSONALLY FOUND THAT SORTING BRASS WITH LEAD BULLETS DID MATTER AT 50 YDS. YES I COULD TELL, BUT IT WAS SO CLOSE, IT WAS BARELY DISCERNIBLE.

NOW JACKETED BULLETS ARE A DIFFERENT STORY. IT'S CRITICAL FOR 50 YD ACCURACY. NEW BRASS WAS THE MOST ACCURATE. ONCE FIRED WAS CLOSE. ABOUT A HALF AN INCH LARGER THAN NEW BRASS. MULTIPLE FIRED BRASS OPENED UP THE GROUP ANOTHER HALF TO THREE QUARTERS OF AN  INCH FROM THE ONCE FIRED. ROLL SIZED BASS WAS MORE ACCURATE THAN STANDARD PLUNGE RESIZED BRASS. YES I'M A IDIOT ABOUT BRASS I BOUGHT A ROLL SIZER. A CASE PRO 100.

THAT BEING SAID, I DO SORT. IT'S A HABIT, OR AN OBSESSION I CAN'T SHAKE.

I ALSO ONLY LOAD QUALITY BRASS, STARLINE, FEDERAL WINCHESTER, REMINGTON OR TZZ. ALL THE REST GO IN A BUCKET. OCCASIONALLY I'LL FILL A LARGE USPS FLAT RATE BOX WITH THOSE ODD BALL 45'S WITH ANY OTHER ODD BALL PISTOL BRASS I HAVE AND SELL IT ON THE WEB FOR THE COST OF SCRAP BRASS + THE SHIPPING . JP

JIMPGOV

Posts : 151
Join date : 2011-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Gary Wells on Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:26 pm

Same brand brass will generally be easier on your press & produce more consistent  COAl's. I reload on a Dillon RL550 & can generally keep my COAl .002-.003 total variation for all rounds loaded. Occasionally I will have an oddball round an extra .001 +/-. I am blind as a bat & can no longer shoot or group worth a da-n, even at 21 ft, but I am hoping that cataract surgery will cure most or all of that. I am plagued with Glaucoma also. I use 1 brand of brass only & take pride in my reloading. I am sure that using a single brand/type of brass will obtain more consistent results, even if they are not easily verified.

Gary Wells

Posts : 17
Join date : 2015-09-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Bigtrout on Sat Nov 26, 2016 9:36 am

I keep all my brass sorted by headstamp and quantity of reloads.  I've tried evaluating each brand by 10-shot groups several times at 25 yds and see no significant difference among Winchester, Remington, CCI Blazer and Federal 9mm.  The tests were run through my 5"RO and 5" 986 revolver.  The revolver does hold tighter groups but I've had it recrowned, throated and action reworked.  Some adjustment may be required for seating depth in a reload session among the 4 brands.

Once the initial sorting is done, keeping them sorted is easy.

Bigtrout

Posts : 127
Join date : 2015-06-21
Age : 76
Location : Richmond, VT

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by w4ti on Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:32 pm

This work has been done in at least one experiment of note:

Gene Rubin and Mike Curtis came up with the following after some experimenting:

"1. No case preparation (untumbled, dirty brass); powder charges loaded with a Dillon 550B - worst group 
2. Brass was tumbled - better, but not significantly 
3. Primer pocket cleaned with RCBS brush - great improvement in group size 
4. Primer pocket uniformed with Sinclair primer pocket uniformer - better 
5. Flash hole deburred - This caused a degradation in group size. Conclusion - DO NOT DEBUR THE FLASH HOLE FOR 45 ACP (IMHO) 
6. Lyman M die - improvement in group size. I am convinced that the straighter the bullet goes in, the straighter it will come out. 
7. Dropped powder charge with Culver Pistol Powder measure - minimal improvement. 
8. Trimmed brass for length with Forster trimmer and deburred the rim. - distinct degradation of group size - DO NOT TRIM 45 ACP BRASS (IMHO) 
9. Seated bullet with Forster Coax press - better - again straighter in - straighter out! 
10. Sorted brass as to Length. - better (Even crimp pressure is the answer) 

So, all the steps out of the way, the takeaway in this experiment:

11. Best results at 50 yards were with 
clean brass, 
cleaned primer pockets, 
uniformed primer pockets, 
Lyman M die, 
Powder dropped with Culver Pistol Powder measure, 
Single stage assembly, 
No deburring of flash hole, 
and sorted brass as to length. 
This was done on a repeat test after initial results were obtained. I posted this some time ago before you were on the list. At that time I stated that trigger control was more important than the bullet. To cut a hole in the 5 ring because you jerked the shot with the best round available doesn't help the score. I am convinced that some upper level shooters can take advantage of the results, but I'd only spend the time for 50 yard loads and then only for important matches like regionals, states or Perry. At the short line there doesn't appear to be the same reward/time spent gain. 


_______________


I happen to think that the consistency of case length plays a roll here; but most importantly is the triggering. If you can't get grip and triggering right, it doesn't matter about the ammo quality. However, the upshot is that if you do load your ammo in a way that works for your gun, tested appropriately, and you find your shot is either off, or called off, then you know it's you, and not the equipment. I happen to think that's valuable, but there are many who do not- let's call them low information shooters.



TL:DR; It is better to sort your cases by length, so long as they are within some tolerance (Excel or Minitab can help you figure it out) of each other. Crimping is case length sensitive, pure and simple. 


Best,
Chase


Last edited by w4ti on Mon Nov 28, 2016 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

w4ti

Posts : 27
Join date : 2016-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Jwhelan939 on Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:08 pm

Disclaimer: this is only my thought process. You may disagree and maybe it will not be proven on a Ransom, but it works for me. 

I think most would agree, regardless of quantitative data, mentality plays a huge part in performance. If I am 100% confident in my equipment /ammo,  my mind is free of outside distractions. Regardless of my ammo/firearm combination, I perform better when my ammo is as good as can be. If I can put all of my focus into the process, I score better.

Jwhelan939

Posts : 246
Join date : 2013-04-27
Age : 33
Location : Pipersville, PA

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Aprilian on Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:26 am

w4ti wrote:This work has been done in at least one experiment of note:

Gene Rubin and Mike Curtis came up with the following after some experimenting:


10. Sorted brass as to Length. - better (Even crimp pressure is the answer) 

11. Best results at 50 yards were with 
clean brass, 
cleaned primer pockets, 
uniformed primer pockets, 
Lyman M die, 
Powder dropped with Culver Pistol Powder measure, 
Single stage assembly, 
No deburring of flash hole, 
and sorted brass as to length. 


_______________
 It is better to sort your cases by length, so long as they are within some tolerance (Excel or Minitab can help you figure it out) of each other. Crimping is case length sensitive, pure and simple. 


Best,
Chase
Since it is winter here and there are no indoor competitions, I started experimenting with measuring once-fired Winchester cases in anticipation of building good test rounds for testing a new barrel.  

I am getting a few cases with differing length readings as I turn and resettle them (measured in the thicker section of the caliper's jaws so that I can use the parallel jaw section).   That must mean that either the rim is not square to the case body or the mouth was not cut straight.
1) what is the best way to measure length if I am sorting?
2) what size "bands" do people sort into?
3) if you get a case with widely different readings (as you turn it) do you place it into a "band" anyway or deal with it another way?  I'd assume that it would seat at the first point of the case mouth which touches the end of the chamber (the longest measured point), but does a partial contact of the case mouth have any accuracy difference to the full contact of a straight case mouth?


Last edited by Aprilian on Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:50 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : expanded my question)

Aprilian

Posts : 112
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by w4ti on Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:59 pm

Aprilian wrote:Since it is winter here and there are no indoor competitions, I started experimenting with measuring once-fired Winchester cases in anticipation of building good test rounds for testing a new barrel.  

I am getting a few cases with differing length readings as I turn and resettle them (measured in the thicker section of the caliper's jaws so that I can use the parallel jaw section).   That must mean that either the rim is not square to the case body or the mouth was not cut straight.
1) what is the best way to measure length if I am sorting?
2) what size "bands" do people sort into?
3) if you get a case with widely different readings (as you turn it) do you place it into a "band" anyway or deal with it another way?  I'd assume that it would seat at the first point of the case mouth which touches the end of the chamber (the longest measured point), but does a partial contact of the case mouth have any accuracy difference to the full contact of a straight case mouth?

It is entirely possible that the mouth is not cut straight, and it is also possible that you could be measuring with inconsistent "touch." I am working on a couple of projects right now regarding case length in the 357 and 44 Mag. and have run into this same problem. 

At first, I thought maybe I was off on my "touch" since I don't use calipers very often. I got a gauge block from Amazon and practiced on it. Once I was convinced it wasn't operator error (and it may not be for you- just detailing what I did), I carefully would measure the cases and still see a bit of variation around the top- but not as often as I had before I got a block. In my experiment, I go with the longest measurement, but if you wanted to be... more precise?... you could take a series of measurements around the top and average them, every 90 degrees or so.

To answer your questions:

1) After getting the min and max deviation I am willing to accept in a lot of cases, I lock my calipers down to whatever measurement I have the most of and sort that way.

2) What you are talking about is "bin size" and it's, so far as I know, completely dependent on both the quality and precision of data you acquire. Calipers are "good enough" to get you within a couple thou- so if your process of measuring the cases was constant, and you had good quality cases, you should expect to see your bin size be small- but you can also set it to be whatever you like. What I tend to do, when I go off on these quality checks, is just use Minitab or Excel to tell me what size I should use based on the samples I collect- but every .001 or .002 seems like a pretty fair "band" to me, and let's face it, believing you are getting anything more precise than that is a pipe dream. Look up six sigma or standard deviation sorts of sites for an overview.

3) On weird ones, I'd probably just average it if I *had* to count it, but I mainly do lot checking and don't worry about outliers too much- if it is too weird, I just toss it in the practice bin.

Here is what a histogram looks like- it's something that helps you visualize the bands/bins. To know you have similar items, you are looking for the majority of them to be the close to the mean, in this, case length.



Hope this helps- have fun and report back!

Best,
Chase

w4ti

Posts : 27
Join date : 2016-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Aprilian on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:39 am

Thanks Chase.   I chose to do bands of roughly two thousands for starting.  Here is a photo of my results.   

Instead of averaging, I chose to go with longest length as (no matter how small of a bump on the case mouth) that is what stops the case going further into the chamber.   I'm still thinking that might not be the best way as a long "bump" would not entail an even crimp from cartridge to cartridge.
Interestingly, the shortest case to longest case was 12 thousands.   I chose to throw .8850 and smaller into practice as I did with .8950 and larger,
Thanks for your help.

Aprilian

Posts : 112
Join date : 2016-05-13
Location : Minnesota

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by CR10X on Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:47 pm

I was bored and finally glanced over this topic.  As an alternative opinion here (for the original posted question), I would like to offer my experience and opinion.  Please remember that my preferences are generally driven  by performance at matches, not group size.

I do recommend sorting cases if possible.  It reduces reloading time (one AMERC or small primer .45 case costs time loading 10 or twenty rounds on the Dillon).   It can help reliability (case rims can be beat up, cases will generally start splitting, etch) so keeping the lots similar in age / times reloaded can help tell you when its time to leave that brass on the ground.

But I have never sorted cases for group size, cleaned a primer pocket, trimmed a .45 case or ever spent any additional time on the cases.  And I've shot some pretty good scores and all the points I lost were my fault.  So, just from my perspective only, the only time to trim, clean primer pockets or anything else except clean, load and shoot is after I have completely exhausted the improvement from dry firing and other training using the same time.  (And unfortunately, I have apparently not run out of room for improvement.)

Again, group size is not my goal, but when I consistently get every shot into the group I will take a look at other areas.  (One of the biggest realities I had to face to get better was the fact that the reason for most of the distance from the group for those "flyers" was me.)

Just some ramblings before I go out to get some more wood for the fire.

Goodnight.

Cecil

CR10X

Posts : 356
Join date : 2011-06-17
Location : NC

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by w4ti on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:37 pm

CR10X wrote:I was bored and finally glanced over this topic.  As an alternative opinion here (for the original posted question), I would like to offer my experience and opinion.  Please remember that my preferences are generally driven  by performance at matches, not group size.
Cecil,

Since we don't have the proof of your claimed results, it's hard to take your comment seriously. More importantly, that you looked at this topic with some degree of boredom says a great deal about yourself and your answer than it does the participants, don't you agree? For instance, Jerry Keefer repeatedly says that cracked cases are a detriment to accuracy, but Ed Masaki says (as I understand it; he has the targets that Jerry doesn't to back up his claim, so take my view on this with a grain of salt until Jerry shows his targets) that there is no difference.

Your performance, such as it is, doesn't amount to much unless we see the targets. I'm sure your match performance is so much better than your practice that you can share those results with the rest of us. 

Why don't you add to the conversation instead of trying to trash it? I dropped the Facebook group and a couple of "friends" off when I wrote something which had been well researched- because I was just supposed to "listen to the wisdom of my elders." One of whom has contradicted his own comments in this very thread from what he has said elsewhere. 

Do you have an on topic response to the original question? Do you know what the original question was?

w4ti

Posts : 27
Join date : 2016-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by orpheoet on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:08 pm

w4ti wrote:
CR10X wrote:I was bored and finally glanced over this topic.  As an alternative opinion here (for the original posted question), I would like to offer my experience and opinion.  Please remember that my preferences are generally driven  by performance at matches, not group size.
Cecil,

Since we don't have the proof of your claimed results, it's hard to take your comment seriously. More importantly, that you looked at this topic with some degree of boredom says a great deal about yourself and your answer than it does the participants, don't you agree? For instance, Jerry Keefer repeatedly says that cracked cases are a detriment to accuracy, but Ed Masaki says (as I understand it; he has the targets that Jerry doesn't to back up his claim, so take my view on this with a grain of salt until Jerry shows his targets) that there is no difference.

Your performance, such as it is, doesn't amount to much unless we see the targets. I'm sure your match performance is so much better than your practice that you can share those results with the rest of us. 

Why don't you add to the conversation instead of trying to trash it? I dropped the Facebook group and a couple of "friends" off when I wrote something which had been well researched- because I was just supposed to "listen to the wisdom of my elders." One of whom has contradicted his own comments in this very thread from what he has said elsewhere. 

Do you have an on topic response to the original question? Do you know what the original question was?
There's no reason to make this personal. Everybody has an opinion, and different experiences. Personally I attribute most of my improvement to this forum.

orpheoet

Posts : 364
Join date : 2014-07-29
Age : 48
Location : Lakewood, Oh

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by w4ti on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:19 pm

orpheoet wrote:There's no reason to make this personal. Everybody has an opinion, and different experiences. Personally I attribute most of my improvement to this forum.

Do you have anything on topic to offer, or is your opinion about an opinion?

Do a little work, and contribute a little. It will do you wonders.

Thanks!

w4ti

Posts : 27
Join date : 2016-04-30

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by LenV on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:54 pm

Just one question. Do your scores go up when you sort cases? A High Master says no. A Master says no. I'm not talking about separating the junk (like Amerc) from your brass. I would love to shoot High Master but I don't think I'm going to get there by sorting brass. YMMV  And yes, that was an opinion. The OP asks for your opinion.

LenV

Posts : 1729
Join date : 2014-01-25
Age : 66
Location : Oargun

Back to top Go down

Re: Sorting cases

Post by Sponsored content Today at 2:09 am


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum