Sorting cases

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Sorting cases

Post by Ghillieman on Sun Nov 20, 2016 12:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

What is everyone's opinion on sorting 45 Auto cases by head stamp to shrink group size.
Is it worthwhile, does it actually work, has it been proven in a ransom rest, are there any articles on it?
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Re: Sorting cases

Post by Dr.Don on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:09 am

Well done Rob.
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Re: Sorting cases

Post by LenV on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:25 am

Dr.Don wrote:Well done Rob.
+1
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Re: Sorting cases

Post by Al on Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:27 am

Thanks Rob,
Excellent!!!
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Re: Sorting cases

Post by Olde Pilot on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:12 pm

It's easy to type something quickly and hit "send." That's a danger of these instant communications. On reflection, often, we would re-think our words and remember that this Forum is for everybody even remotely interested in Bullseye. Heaven knows there are a lot fewer of us than in the late 1960's when I shot for a while.

Rejoining the sport after a 39 year (!) layoff a few years ago, I'm still trying to re-learn the lessons which earned me a Master card those decades ago. The Masters and High Masters who participate in the Forum are very valuable assets, especially since there are only a few hundred active shooters in these top classes. I ask them to be patient with us "newbies" and understand that they are our teachers and heroes in the sport.

Lastly, in every sport or endeavor, there are those that love to tinker. I know I should spend more time working on fundamentals rather that tinkering with my guns and loads. But, I tweak my guns and try ever more loads because it's simply a component of the sport I enjoy as well as shooting and socializing

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Re: Sorting cases

Post by r_zerr on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:32 pm

Chas, W4TI,

A deviation from the main topic of sorting cases, but please allow me to share my experience, and begin with my background.
I am a rifle shooter, now primarily hi-power, with a High Master calssification. I have been among the top 3 shooters (on stage) at Perry a couple of times, won a few of the various cups, shot smallbore rifle and for the past couple of years hacking along in pistol. I have done gunsmithing since 1987, re-barrelling, and a whole lot more. I have done extensive testing and playing with loads and accuracy (rifles), and have in the past worked a number of years behind a gun counter, as well as being a working degreed Engineer. Been around, seen a lot, done a lot, learned a lot, but still room for more. Because of that background, I am smart enough to recognize competence and capability and separate it from conjecture and second hand babble picked up from drinking companions , internet experts, or other so-called experts.  Add to this the fact that Bullseye shooting is a well developed, mature sport and you will find that a great quantity of that knowledge already exists in the hands of some of the people whose toes you have stepped upon.

Observations about the people you have mentioned:
Jerry Keefer.  Jerry is a very well respected gunsmith. His word is backed by many hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange. The quality of his work is the measure of excellence, and he chases .0001"s of an inch to make the pistols that he builds shoot the tightest groups possible.  He seeks perfection in his work, and his work shows it. While "only" a Master in bullseye according to his online info, he is a Highmaster in PPC, and I would bet that any High-Master in either shooting discipline who was offered one of his guns to shoot would happily accept it, if not jump for joy at it. He has been silent on this forum lately because too many people try to tell him he is wrong either directly or indirectly. I don't blame him, but I miss his very informative posts and work.

John Eullete.   John has been shooting from what I can tell a long time. He has shot international extensively, as well as Bullseye. He is a High-Master, and builds some fine shooting pistols. If you read through enough posts, you will see that he and Jerry have had a number of discussions on things, and you will see a lot of very healthy sharing of what works being employed, and shared.

John Bickar.   John Bickar is pretty quiet about himself, although he has shot above a 2660 in registered matches, and is a High Master.  I would bet money if I were to look through past Camp Perry results, that his name is on a number of the various match winner lines. He has "been there and done that." 

Cecil Rhodes (I apologize if I have misspelled anything).  I have read a number of Cecils posts, and have had a couple of exchanges of e-mail with him.  Cecil started later in life and has studied and worked at what the shooting he does. He doesn't just do something, but sits and analyzes it, in order to maximize the results.  Cecil really understands the fundamentals of training and what it takes to advance. He has taken lots of notes of what he has done and what has worked or failed upon which to build upon the things that he says. Cecil is always seeking improvement. In this area, he is keenly knowledgeable.

That said, I can tell you from my standpoint, having been asked for instruction, direction or information, that too many people ask a question, will listen to the answer, and then go in a different direction. An example for me to others: if the winds flags, mirage, and the dust are not all in the same direction all over the range, do not shoot, because there is something going on down range that is not consistent, and will not produce consistent results.  People who are informed of this have gone and told me "look, I just shot a 10 in that oddball condition that you told me not to shoot in."  I tell them they were lucky (like shooting cases with split necks), and they go on to shoot in that "same" condition, blowing a 6,7, or if lucky, an 8 on the next shot.  Meanwhile, I have been waiting and have not dropped any points. Those persons effectively told me I was "wrong," with and after the first shot, and "right" with the 2nd shot. By doing what they did,  they told me that they are not worthy of my efforts of helping them, because they don't believe what I have told them, or choose to ignore it. 

The point of this is, that one can listen to the voice of experience/knowledge/wisdom and gain from it.  People who earned a high master classification are generally in possession of great quantities of experience/knowledge/wisdom regarding the area of their classification, in this case Bullseye.  The other option is that one can plod on learning things the hard way: on their own. But to vocally or in writing tell someone with those experiences (High Masters) that they are wrong is an exhibition in being foolish if not ignorant or just stupid.  

Jerry does not put up with what he sees as stupid very well, and you are fortunate that the others have responded as gentlemanly as they have after you posted such statements as "Since we don't have the proof of your claimed results, it's hard to take your comment seriously, "  and  " (who I'm sure are fine folks, even though they either entirely too verbose without substance, or have no substance with which to be verbose)." 

Because of their backgrounds which I have just touched upon, these peoples words are based on their merit, and long hard work to get to the levels they have achieved. While, some of the things that they conclude are based upon their balance of what is most important to them (at the time), they are rarely incorrect....and their scorecards are the proof.

Me, I have listened to what these experienced people say, and will continue to seek advice from them in my endeavors to be a better pistol shooter. I would encourage the same for all. My 2 cents worth, and down off my soapbox because I do not want to get much more verbose.


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Re: Sorting cases

Post by Rob Kovach on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:50 pm

Tinkering is a fun part of this sport.  As a former tinkerer myself, I repeated many of the same experiments with cases that were described in this thread, and that were repeated by many others before me.  Thankfully so many of those tinkering efforts are described in the archives here!

The results of the tinkering are a part of the confidence needed to forget about the equipment and that is helpful for excellence.
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Re: Sorting cases

Post by r_zerr on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:05 pm

Rob,

Tinkering is definitely a part of this sport, and tinkering should be encouraged. 

I believe that "Tinkering" is probably a permanent condition...you can not be a tinkerer or you can be a tinkerer, or you can be a recovering tinkerer (aka, a person who has hocked his stuff, had it stolen, or lost in "that separation settlement"). :-)

-Ron

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Re: Sorting cases

Post by DavidR on Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:56 am

Olde Pilot wrote:It's easy to type something quickly and hit "send." That's a danger of these instant communications. On reflection, often, we would re-think our words and remember that this Forum is for everybody even remotely interested in Bullseye. Heaven knows there are a lot fewer of us than in the late 1960's when I shot for a while.
Well we do have a EDIT button that works to change those things we say that later we wish we hadn't. We are family here, we welcome new members with no question to their ability to shot X's or any other requirements other than our FORUM RULES that every member agreed to follow when they registered here. Following these rules is not optional.If a problem arises we give a friendly warning, sometimes several but if problems continue then we have no choice but to remove that person from the forum membership. We bend over backwards to resolve conflicts and do not do this lightly as we want everyone to get along and prosper from the great wealth of knowledge the forum and its members have to offer.
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Re: Sorting cases

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