VihtaVuori Powders And Cold Temperatures

Hello all,

Are all VihtaVuori pistol powders as negatively impacted by cold temperatures as N310 is?  Specifically, N320?

Thanks.

Jim

so they say... i never had problem w/ 310 when i was in alaska @ the range in 10-20 degree

Hello Chris,

4.2 grains of N310 has given me flawless functioning in many M1911s in the past but recently failed to cycle two different ones when the temperature dipped to the low/mid forties.  Yes, I know that is not really cold but I live in California and the load was developed and is typically used in the seventy degree (plus) range.

Jim

I shoot 3.8 n310 in all weather @ 25

I'll bet the 3.8 gr is with lead bullets and the 4.2 is with jacketed?   In my experience, the 4.2 is about minimal / marginal with recent vintages of vv310 and slide mount scopes with normal range of springs.  4.4 is where I generally see no function issues with slide mounts now. 

3.8  is actually a pretty good level load with lead bullets (200 gr especially due to the case volume used by most SWC designs in that weight). 

When I first started I only noticed some temperature issues when testing or using very light loads of VV310.   My generally assumption is that while it is a "fast" progressive powder, there is probably a charge level versus case volume issue that surfaces when minimum loads are used. 

With 3.85 gr for lead (0.469 crimp) and 4.4 gr for jacketed (0.470 crimp) both federal cases; I do not see any temperature issues.  However, you may find that for certain lead bullets of 180 grains or less, even 3.85 gr of current vintage vv310 can become a little light and requires reduced springs or bumping the powder charge. 

Again, internal ballistics for pistol reloading is generally an exercise in finding the most important variable out of an infinity of variables and pleading with it to let you shoot a good group.

4.2 n310 @ 50  3.8 N310 @ 25  w/ 185jhp.  My "ball gun" can run 3.6 N310 @ 25...but i got lazy and don't feel like adjusting my powder bar. 

I recently ordered some zero 200swc will try the 3.85

Ok guys I am going to throw something out at you.  It might not be your choice of powder at all but your choice of lube on your slide.  You might try using a different lube first before going into a load development tailspin.

Hello all,

Yes, CR10X, my load is for the 185 grains Nosler and I too have heard that the current batches of N310 differ some from earlier batches.  I may put together some 4.4 grains loads to try for when we get a frost again.

Allen, while cold temperatures can play havoc with oil viscosity, I don't believe it is the major contributor in this case.  The loads even choked with my relatively loose 30 plus year old backup gun.

Jim

spursnguns wrote:Hello Chris,

4.2 grains of N310 has given me flawless functioning in many M1911s in the past but recently failed to cycle two different ones when the temperature dipped to the low/mid forties.  Yes, I know that is not really cold but I live in California and the load was developed and is typically used in the seventy degree (plus) range.

Jim

Poor baby it was 6 degrees when I woke up this morning. lol

310 is temperature sensitive, go with a lighter recoil spring #10 should work or bump the load to 4.5gn if you are shooting JHPs. 

You could also switch to BE and it will work about the same above 30 degrees.

Allen Barnett wrote:Ok guys I am going to throw something out at you.  It might not be your choice of powder at all but your choice of lube on your slide.  You might try using a different lube first before going into a load development tailspin.

Good point Allen CLP is lousy in the cold. Lucus seems much better.

Hello Rich,

Six degrees!  Yikes.  How can you drink Margaritas and lay out at the beach in that type of weather?

I did have some Bullseye loads stashed away in my truck that I used to get out of my pickle.

But getting back to my original question, do other VihtoVuori powders have this issue?

Thanks all,

Jim

Chris, I have found (and some others have as well) that with most 185 JHP / powder combinations, the groups tend to get smaller as the velocity increases.  For 185 JHPs (Nobler / Zero) I generally use 4.4 to 4.5 gr VV310 which I think is definitely not a minimum recoil load. On the other hand, groups were smaller than with the 4.2 and lesser loads I was testing when CMP changed the EIC ammo and gun rules. Above 4.4 gr, the recoil started to trend to the point of more than I wanted for timed and rapid.

A 200gr or 180 gr LSWC with 3.85 gr VV310 shoots much softer and is my choice for NRA 2700 CF / .45 matches.

And both of these loads show very good case expansion in the chamber (very little soot on cases) and combustion is very complete, these are very clean burning loads.  Which doesn't mean a thing when it comes to groups, but its a nice side benefit.

rich.tullo wrote:

spursnguns wrote:Hello Chris,

4.2 grains of N310 has given me flawless functioning in many M1911s in the past but recently failed to cycle two different ones when the temperature dipped to the low/mid forties.  Yes, I know that is not really cold but I live in California and the load was developed and is typically used in the seventy degree (plus) range.

Jim

Poor baby it was 6 degrees when I woke up this morning. lol

310 is temperature sensitive, go with a lighter recoil spring #10 should work or bump the load to 4.5gn if you are shooting JHPs. 

You could also switch to BE and it will work about the same above 30 degrees.

Went from Alaska to NC, to VA.. i'm spoiled i don't like anything below 50

So you are the one that brought the cold weather. It was 0 in Richmond this morning.

jmdavis wrote:So you are the one that brought the cold weather. It was 0 in Richmond this morning.

you're making me blush 

spursnguns wrote:Hello Rich,

Six degrees!  Yikes.  How can you drink Margaritas and lay out at the beach in that type of weather?

I did have some Bullseye loads stashed away in my truck that I used to get out of my pickle.

But getting back to my original question, do other VihtoVuori powders have this issue?

Thanks all,

Jim

HA HA , Yes I believe they are temperature sensitive. Like WST I believe VV Powders are single base hence the cleanliness. Bullseye is double base hence its dirtier even though its the same burn rate as 310.

If you want to have some real fun, find some old Winchester 452 to play with. It was *inversely* affected by temperature.

Pretty sure all Winchester ball powders are double base.

I use to shoot Clays because there was zero temp sensitivity for here in MN, couldn't find it and switched to WST, now I have to check my loads when it gets much below 30.

Lube, Mobil 1 full synthetic, I started using this on AR bolts when it got below zero.

- Dave

Even with Marvel Machinegun oil, my summer ball loads will not work reliably with a 13lb spring in the "ball gun." I even tested the Spring to check its weight.

At 4.0-4.2 bullseye with 185 jhp a Nosler. I never claimed they were hardball loads.

I've also noticed that my shortline 3.8 BE with 185 zero lswc are sluggish in the wad gun in temps below 40. Sometimes it is below 40 indoors when I go for practice.

CR10X wrote:... However, you may find that for certain lead bullets of 180 grains or less, even 3.85 gr of current vintage vv310 can become a little light and requires reduced springs or bumping the powder charge. ...

The unburnt powder you see in the barrel is from a load of 3.7gr of N310 using a polymer coated, 175gr, LSWC.  This load was so light it would not cycle my 1911, even using a 8# recoil spring (slide mounted scope).  So I tried it in my S&W 625.  It left unburnt powder in the chamber, in the barrel and in the case.  To CR10X's point, the smaller bullet resulted in larger case volume (as compared to a 185gr or a 200gr) and coupled with a light charge, resulted in a large amount of unburnt powder.  So I need to 1)use a heavier bullet (i.e. longer bullet) that will reduce case volume and/or (probably and) 2)a heavier charge.

joy2shoot wrote:

CR10X wrote:... However, you may find that for certain lead bullets of 180 grains or less, even 3.85 gr of current vintage vv310 can become a little light and requires reduced springs or bumping the powder charge. ...

The unburnt powder you see in the barrel is from a load of 3.7gr of N310 using a polymer coated, 175gr, LSWC.  This load was so light it would not cycle my 1911, even using a 8# recoil spring (slide mounted scope).  So I tried it in my S&W 625.  It left unburnt powder in the chamber, in the barrel and in the case.  To CR10X's point, the smaller bullet resulted in larger case volume (as compared to a 185gr or a 200gr) and coupled with a light charge, resulted in a large amount of unburnt powder.  So I need to 1)use a heavier bullet (i.e. longer bullet) that will reduce case volume and/or (probably and) 2)a heavier charge.

did you try tighter crimp?

Actually yes.  But if I make it any tighter, it will start cutting into the bullet.

dronning wrote:I use to shoot Clays because there was zero temp sensitivity for here in MN, couldn't find it and switched to WST, now I have to check my loads when it gets much below 30.

Lube, Mobil 1 full synthetic, I started using this on AR bolts when it got below zero.

- Dave

add some atf fluid to that and you have rust protection too