NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

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NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by CR10X on Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:44 pm

Has anyone take to the time to look at the "new" Annex A – Pistol Firing Procedures and Commands for CMP versus the NRA Rules 10. RANGE COMMANDS, CONTROL, AND OPERATIONS?

You now have to have the ECI already installed in the gun in the box before going to the line?  (At least that's how it reads to me,  the actual described process is also a little confusing).

A pre-prep period before the preparation period for CMP?

They can't even agree on what a Clear /Safe Line or Range is?  For CMP, its clear the line and you don't handle guns or fire.  For NRA, you have the range is clear and can handle guns and fire (with the appropriate commands) or the Line is Safe and you can't handle guns!  An outstanding way to confuse the heck out of new shooters (an old alike)!  

Aside here (Dear CMP, using "the line is clear" is not really very meaningful anyway.  Think about it.)  

Now we have to load 5 rounds in EIC slowfire?

Look, we (match directors) had a process. "Make the line safe."  "The line is safe, you may go downrange."   "Everyone is back from down range. The range is clear, you may handle your guns."   

The only time we tell you how many to load is for TF / RF, to make sure competitors cannot create a beneficial condition in case of refires.

I didn't list them all, everyone now has a chance to play Where's Waldo comparing the rules and commands. 

If I've gotten any of this incorrect, please feel free to let me know.  

Thanks.

Cecil


Last edited by CR10X on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:23 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : I find it difficult to type with more than two fingers.....)

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by r_zerr on Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:46 pm

Cecil,

It is all messed up and the burro-crats are writing rules so fast to try to make the "divorce" final, that they copy and pasted things from rifle riles into pistol, or vice versa and on and on.

Encourage RO's to continue on with good range practice and let the silliness figure its own way out.

-Ron

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by CR10X on Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:07 pm

Ron, I know.  As with almost any divorce, its usually the kids that get hurt the most.....

But silliness without adequate supervision can eventually lead to stupid. As in "Hey you'all, watch this!"; which in North Carolina, is usually followed by a quick trip to the emergency room. 

I was at a Regional Match in another state not that many years ago.  One of the commands after returning to line from scoring (every time) was, "The range is not safe, you may handle your guns".  I exhibited an extremely large amount of self control and didn't make a single smart ass comment the whole day.  I still kinda regret that a little......

Cecil "Just Looking for Some Consistency" Rhodes

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by john bickar on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:33 pm

Cecil,

Camp Perry is the only place I've ever seen anyone even try to come close to calling things by the letter of the rule book, and Mom and Dad have pretty much taken care of that now, haven't they?
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by CR10X on Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:56 pm

I hear you John.  Yes, I've seen commands that have ranged from practically non-existent, to just plain confusing, to "what did he say?".


Clark, at the Durham Pistol and Rifle Club, and at our Sir Walter Gun Club pistol matches, we have tried to utilize the same commands as at Camp Perry. We started the first draft of matching the rule book match commands years ago, updated for ECI and I believe Clark provided the final edits so as to match the Perry commands to the extent practical.  I know of several others that have gotten copies of our match commands script for their own use.


Hopefully, we can get some consistency.  At the very least, we should try and not confuse the new shooters too much. 


Sorry, don't mean to carry this on any further and I'll do my best not to post on this again.   I just kinda take my Match Director duties as seriously as I do actual shooting.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Jack H on Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:37 pm

Aw come on CR.  Keep posting.  It won't hurt, and we won't mind.  Maybe the NRA and CMP will take notice.  Your wisdom is needed.......
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by ted.carter.568 on Thu Jan 12, 2017 11:17 am

Unfortunately CMP does not solicit input for their Service and .22 Rimfire Pistol EIC rules from NRA Pistol Committee.  Thanks for the heads up.  I'm not sure if NRA Referee rep on the NRA Pistol Committee has seen CMP's updated rules, but I'll let him know and ask for his input.  Standardization between NRA and CMP shooting discipline rules makes it easier for match directors and competitions.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Ed Hall on Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:48 pm

Hi Cecil and all,  Great to see Ted Carter on here, too!

I'll add just a little.  First, the requirement for the ECI to be in the gun prior to getting to the line has been there since ECIs were made mandatory.  I brought it up back then and nobody seemed to care.  At Perry, as long as you put it in when you brought the pistol out all was fine, so I quit bringing it up.

Next, did you notice "Loading?"  They seem to have taken hold of the International view and you can't load the magazine until the load command: "Competitors may not load magazines or their pistols until after the command LOAD."  I'm sure that will cause some issues.  Does this also mean you must load one magazine only?

The way these are written, it seems like everyone must box their gear and close their boxes between the general 2700 and the EIC relay.  An added nuisance at some of the the big matches.

There is also no permitted fix for a malfunction, as written in the commands, even though 7.1.5 says to follow NRA rules.?  If you can't have a second magazine loaded and ready to use, I guess that's no longer an option.

Something else I find curious (but, maybe I was wrong all along):  There is now the option of using the command "Commence Firing" instead of facing targets.  Are turning targets not required for Service Pistol?  Is this new, or was I mistaken in believing they were necessary, all along?

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by john bickar on Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:48 pm

Ed Hall wrote:Something else I find curious (but, maybe I was wrong all along):  There is now the option of using the command "Commence Firing" instead of facing targets.  Are turning targets not required for Service Pistol?  Is this new, or was I mistaken in believing they were necessary, all along?

I have shot in EIC matches without turning targets. I have been meaning to check the rule book but I presume this is permitted.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by robert84010 on Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:03 pm

I believe the CMP rulebook specifically calls for 50yd slowfire but does not mention turning targets as requirements, at least last years rulebook stated that.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by DavidR on Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:20 pm

CMP is using electronic targets at their new Alabama facility i can see them altering commands to fit this new type venue
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by rfmiller on Fri Jan 13, 2017 8:15 am



Sorry, don't mean to carry this on any further and I'll do my best not to post on this again.   I just kinda take my Match Director duties as seriously as I do actual shooting.




CR,
I think these things are important and deserve comment.  For a while our small group of indoor shooters had another hard working and well meaning club officer calling our weekly 900.  He shoots in and runs other disciplines.  He also "galloped" thru the commands.  "Ready on the firing line" was barely out of his mouth before the targets turned.  While it didn't bother some, I couldn't get thru my shot process and was never really ready especially on rapid fire.  It seems like a little thing but having consistent commands and timing helps some of us.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by jmdavis on Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:39 pm

Consistency of the command process is the reason that I like the box or the app for commands.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by MarkF45 on Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:08 pm

I have been running NRA matches since 2011. I come as close to the rule book as I possibly can. I even say "refire" instead of "alibi". When I started running CMP DRP in 2015, I used the NRA commands for consistency for both the competitors and me.

I noticed the changes in the 2017 CMP rulebook. I don't know if CMP wants to be different for the sake of being different, or they just copied a rifle rulebook, or whatever. I don't care. I will continue to use consistent commands for both matches because I believe that to be SAFER for everybody. I have enough trouble remembering to change the timer box from 20 sec to 10 sec and back again at the appropriate times, without having to use 2 different sets of commands for the same course of fire.

Mark Freedman
Escondido Fish & Game Precision Pistol Match Director
Escondido, CA


BTW, if anybody knows what was wrong with the word "alibi", please tell me. I'd really like to know.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Jack H on Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:35 pm

An alibi is something you have

A refire is something you do
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by dennymac on Fri Jan 27, 2017 12:10 pm

In the rifle matches a 'refire' is different from an 'alibi'. On an alibi, you get the score of your successfully fired rounds, say 7 out of 10. Then you shoot an additional string of the correct number of rounds. You then get the lowest 3 rounds to add to your score. On a 'refire', you do not get to see your score for the shots that were successfully fired. The target is cleaned and you 'refire' the string for a complete score. They are not the same thing, at least in the rifle matches. I should probably study the pistol rules a bit more to see if there is something like that. DennyMac.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Rob Kovach on Fri May 12, 2017 10:19 am

Well, it's official,

One of my match directors had a bonafide safety concern about the CMP "make the line clear" instead of "make the line safe" rule change when the command for "the range is clear" precedes the handling of firearms.

He contacted CMP about his concerns and was rebuffed and dismissed.

His 2017 match bulletin came out today.  There will be no EIC match held at his match this year.

I don't blame this match director one bit.  Shame on the CMP for messing this up.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by cdrt on Fri May 12, 2017 1:02 pm

I just finished running our state outdoor match.  One of the competitors asked me if I was going to use the CMP range commands for the Service Pistol and .22 EIC matches.  I told him no, since I felt it would be confusing for the competitors to have to switch between two sets of commands.  No one complained and I doubt if many of them knew there are two sets of range commands.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Tim:H11 on Fri May 12, 2017 1:19 pm

This is all new to me. I didn't realize there were two separate sets of commands.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by TomH_pa on Fri May 12, 2017 2:21 pm

Minor point.... but the pre-prep is from rifle also whereas in pre prep you are allowed to put your sling on and build your position as long as your ECI remains in the rifle

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Corregidor on Sun May 14, 2017 9:01 pm

I don't post often, however, CRDT: You accepted sponsorship and accreditation by the CMP and are obligated per your agreement  to conduct Service Pistol EIC Matches in strict accordance with the CMP HIGHPOWER RIFLE AND PISTOL COMPETITION RULES 21st Edition—2017. You have no authority to selectively enforce portions of it. You are on very thin ice.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by cdrt on Mon May 15, 2017 5:14 am

Corregidor wrote:I don't post often, however, CRDT: You accepted sponsorship and accreditation by the CMP and are obligated per your agreement to conduct Service Pistol EIC Matches in strict accordance with the CMP HIGHPOWER RIFLE AND PISTOL COMPETITION RULES 21st Edition—2017. You have no authority to selectively enforce portions of it. You are on very thin ice.

While the .22 EIC must be run as a stand-alone match, we always run the Service Pistol EIC and DR match concurrently to save time.  It would not make sense to use the CMP's rules in that instance.  Obviously you live in an alternate reality, thinking that some CMP spy is going to report us for running a match that does not use their rules a 100% of the time.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Corregidor on Mon May 15, 2017 7:20 am

There are no threats or anything even close. You are a CMP Match Director and are obligated to run a sanctioned CMP Match according to their rules. If you don’t want to follow their rules then don’t apply to conduct an Excellence-in-Competition Match. It’s that simple. If you conduct a sanctioned CMP Excellence-in-Competition Match and do not follow their rules then you open yourself up to protest and jeopardize having your match scores nullified. It is in black and white in the rules CRDT, no threats:
 
 
CMP HIGHPOWER RIFLE AND PISTOL COMPETITION RULES 21st Edition—2017
 
Authority. The CMP governs and sanctions competition events in accordance with Title 36, USC, § 40701-40733. The authority “to conduct competitions in the use of firearms and to award trophies, prizes, badges, and other insignia to competitors” is one of the statutory “functions” of the CPRPFS. Authority to conduct the National Matches is given in §40725.
 
Applicability. CMP Competition Rules govern the National Trophy Rifle and Pistol Matches, CMP-sanctioned EIC matches and CMP-sanctioned Service Rifle and Pistol Matches as well as other competitions sponsored or sanctioned by the CMP. No match program, match director or other match official has the authority to contravene these rules except as explicitly authorized in these rules
 
5.13 Protests and Protest Resolution
5.13.1 Protests
Any competitor or team that feels the conditions of the competition are not in accordance with these rules, or that is penalized, disciplined or disqualified, may protest that decision if they feel the decision was not made in accordance with applicable CMP or NRA Rules. Decisions by the Chief Pit Officer or the Chief Statistical Officer regarding the number and scores of shots may not be protested.
5.13.2 Protest Decisions
A Jury (Rule 5.2.6) must decide protests at CMP-sanctioned matches. Written reports on all protests filed at CMP-sanctioned matches must be forwarded to the CMP. The National Matches Protest Jury decides all protests at the National Matches.
5.13.3 Appeal of Protest Decision
 Either party involved in a protest decided by a jury or referee may appeal that decision to the CMP for review by a CMP Protest Committee. An appeal of 32 any decision made by a Jury regarding a protest at an EIC or CMP-sanctioned match must be submitted to the CMP within 72 hours and will be decided by a CMP Protest Committee that shall be appointed by the CMP Chief Operating Officer. Decisions by a CMP Protest Committee are final. There is no further right of appeal.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Chris Miceli on Mon May 15, 2017 7:24 am

cdrt wrote:I just finished running our state outdoor match.  One of the competitors asked me if I was going to use the CMP range commands for the Service Pistol and .22 EIC matches.  I told him no, since I felt it would be confusing for the competitors to have to switch between two sets of commands.  No one complained and I doubt if many of them knew there are two sets of range commands.
Cmp didnt even run the CMP commands at perry last year.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by james r chapman on Mon May 15, 2017 11:40 am

I bet they self reported themselves!!
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

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