NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

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NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by CR10X on 1/11/2017, 5:44 pm

First topic message reminder :

Has anyone take to the time to look at the "new" Annex A – Pistol Firing Procedures and Commands for CMP versus the NRA Rules 10. RANGE COMMANDS, CONTROL, AND OPERATIONS?

You now have to have the ECI already installed in the gun in the box before going to the line?  (At least that's how it reads to me,  the actual described process is also a little confusing).

A pre-prep period before the preparation period for CMP?

They can't even agree on what a Clear /Safe Line or Range is?  For CMP, its clear the line and you don't handle guns or fire.  For NRA, you have the range is clear and can handle guns and fire (with the appropriate commands) or the Line is Safe and you can't handle guns!  An outstanding way to confuse the heck out of new shooters (an old alike)!  

Aside here (Dear CMP, using "the line is clear" is not really very meaningful anyway.  Think about it.)  

Now we have to load 5 rounds in EIC slowfire?

Look, we (match directors) had a process. "Make the line safe."  "The line is safe, you may go downrange."   "Everyone is back from down range. The range is clear, you may handle your guns."   

The only time we tell you how many to load is for TF / RF, to make sure competitors cannot create a beneficial condition in case of refires.

I didn't list them all, everyone now has a chance to play Where's Waldo comparing the rules and commands. 

If I've gotten any of this incorrect, please feel free to let me know.  

Thanks.

Cecil


Last edited by CR10X on 1/12/2017, 5:23 am; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : I find it difficult to type with more than two fingers.....)

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Rob Kovach on 5/15/2017, 4:23 pm

A couple things:

I edited and deleted some posts that do not reflect the manner of decorum that I require of members of this forum.  I don't do it often.  Some edits were to help the topic proceed, and others were to eliminate unacceptable conduct.  If anybody has a problem with my edits, contact me via email or PM.

Corregidor is correct in the fact that all match directors are bound by contract to conduct matches in accordance with the CMP rules.

CDRT is also correct that there probably aren't going to be any spies informing the CMP that rules were not followed--and we have already seen that when rules were bent by CMP officials at Talledega, consequences are few/none.

I don't fault Corregidor for his decision as match director to cease CMP EIC matches until CMP concedes to change the rulebook or to that matches can be conducted with our sport's conventional commands via a waiver under rule 5.1.5.

To Chris Miceli's point of CMP not running the 2016 NTI match in accordance with the current rules: I'm not sure the 2016 rulebook included these range commands or if they were new for 2017's rulebook.  My memory just isn't that good so I keep the current rules nearby and I really try to forget previous versions.

To try and simmer everybody down a notch, I want everyone to sit down and read the rulebook. http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=03022017 
To see how this current combined Rifle/Pistol rulebook has "problems" start at Section 5.0 on P.17 and notice how the cross references omit commands in Annex A (the pistol annex) and instead requires all Chief Range Officers to use Annex B--the RIFLE commands.

To CDRT's point, rule 5.2.2 seems to give the Chief Range Officer some latitude with range commands and safety procedures.  I would recommend that CDRT could argue that it is under that authority that the match was conducted using conventional range commands instead of the ones prescribed in the rulebook.

Bottom line is this: poorly written rulebooks aren't helpful for our sport.  CMP needs to be a bit more gracious when we reveal the issues that we find in their poor work product.

I am in the process of writing a detailed message to CMP about some of the rulebook problems that I have found while giving them an effective solution of using rule 5.1.5 to allow match directors to proceed without fear of breach of contract.  I will let everyone know if any relevant decisions are communicated to me.

Proceed with discussion.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by cdrt on 5/15/2017, 5:32 pm

The rules from 2016 to 2017 are pretty much the same, including not loading magazines until the command to Load has been given.

Since we ran the Service Pistol and DR together, it only made sense to use the NRA commands, rather than the CMP's.  No one complained and no protests were filed.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Corregidor on 5/15/2017, 7:24 pm

The CMP had historically incorporated NRA Rule 10 for Range Commands, etc. You are correct, the CMP removed -- as far as I know -- the NRA Rule 10 reference and substituted “Annex A” last year (20th Ed., 2016). The Rule 10 commands, etc. being the standard procedures everybody knows and are comfortable with.
 
Hardly anybody (including yours truly) noticed the "Annex A" substitution until the 21st Ed., 2017 rules came out this January. It is being widely noticed now!

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by jmdavis on 5/17/2017, 8:59 am

Chris Miceli wrote:
cdrt wrote:I just finished running our state outdoor match.  One of the competitors asked me if I was going to use the CMP range commands for the Service Pistol and .22 EIC matches.  I told him no, since I felt it would be confusing for the competitors to have to switch between two sets of commands.  No one complained and I doubt if many of them knew there are two sets of range commands.
Cmp didnt even run the CMP commands at perry last year.


Inconceivable!!!
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Tim:H11 on 5/17/2017, 9:30 am

It gets very confusing for me and I have to pay attention to the majority actions of the line (people who know what's going on). In Muzzleloading they say 

"Cease fire, cease fire on the pistol line. Do we have any hot ones? There are no hot ones, bench all pistols and make the line safe. (Scans for all shooters hands off the guns and guns upright in stands) the line is safe you may go forward and post targets." At least that's the brunt of it. 

My weekend range (not competitive) 

"Clear, clear the line, bench all weapons make the line safe. Magazines out, slides back, and bolts open please. Are we clear in the pit? (Clear called response), Pit is clear, the line is clear you may go forward post and pull your targets, and please no handling firearms while people are down range." 

So for me clear is a safe call where as in NRA clear means no bodies down range and we're permitted to handle our guns. A lot to keep track of.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Rob Kovach on 5/18/2017, 11:03 am

Correct, Tim.  The word "clear" should only describe the conditions of the RANGE prior to a command that guns can be handled.

"Safe" is a condition of the guns uncased and on the benches that all competitors understands is a time when guns are not handled.

This is not an area where CMP should vary from convention.
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Response from the CMP

Post by BrianD on 5/18/2017, 12:47 pm

I do not know if this clarifies anything but here is the response I received from the CMP.



The competitors can have 2 magazines loaded with 5 rounds in each on their firing point.
In the rules found at http://thecmp.org/wp-content/uploads/Rulebook.pdf?ver=03022017, on page 22 rule 5.6.8…
5.6.8 Safety During Loading
Loading is defined as bringing a cartridge or magazine containing cartridges in contact with
a rifle or pistol. Firearms may be loaded only when a competitor is on a firing
point and only after the Range Officer gives the command LOAD.
Any competitor who loads and fires a shot before the LOAD
command shall be disqualified and may not continue firing in the competition
 
The commands have not changed from last year for the pistol matches.
 
They can reload their magazines when they are done firing, make the pistol safe by slide back, remove magazine and inserting the safety flag  rule 5.6.1 page 21
 
5.6.1 Safety Flags
Safety Flags (Empty Chamber Indicators -ECIs) must be placed in all rifles
and pistols when they are brought onto a range.Safety flags must remain in
rifles or pistols at all times, except during preparation and firing periods.
A rifle or pistol being carried on a range must have a safety flag inserted
whether it is carried in an uncased condition or in a gun case or storage container.
Safety flags must be fluorescent orange, yellow or a similar bright color and must have a probe that inserts in
to the gun chamber and a visible
flag that projects out from the open gun action
 
On page 83-85 there are safety definitions
 
Loaded Pistol.
A Pistol is loaded when a cartridge is inserted in the
chamber, or when a magazine/clip containing cartridges is inserted in it.
Pistols may only be loaded after the Range Officer commands LOAD.
 
I hope this helps you.
 
Thanks,
 
Michelle Woods
Thanks for your continued support of the CMP.
Customer Service/Program Support
mwoods@thecmp.org
419 635-2141 ext.722

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by CR10X on 5/18/2017, 1:56 pm

Yea, I know I said I was done, but dang it.  Somebody t'd me off a little today.  

Doesn't clarify anything since Annex A specifically says in each section....

Competitors may not load magazines or their pistols until after the command LOAD

So as far as I can see you can have only one loaded magazine immediately after the command to load for Timed and Rapid Fire strings.  Since the commands are only: WITH FIVE ROUNDS…LOAD and there are no additional commands about loading another magazine as in the Slow Fire section. 

Additionally, Annex A also includes:

Loading. Loading a magazine or pistol may only be done after the command LOAD is given. Loading pistols for all match series is done by inserting five rounds in a magazine (or cylinder), placing the magazine in the pistol and closing the action. 

I've searched the rules and cannot find any reference to the number of magazines to be load, having loaded magazines available before the command to load is given or prior to coming to the line (already loaded in the case).

Also, per Annex A, the commands between EACH of the 5 shot strings for time, rapid and refire strings require that the competitors UNLOAD, MAGAZINES OUT, SLIDES BACK, INSERT SAFETY FLAGS, PLACE PISTOLS ON THE BENCH. 

In addition Annex A also had the requirement for an additional 3 minute preparation period between the 50 yard target strings and starting the 25 yard target strings.

By the way, for those running the matches, you will need one Range Officer for each 10 firing positions.   

Just some simple observations.

CR

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Corregidor on 5/18/2017, 3:19 pm

Rob gave the best advice... read the 21st Edition Rulebook. Pay particular attention to Sec. 5.8 (p.24) and "Annex A". 

Match Directors: we are absolutely required to use "Annex A" in administration of a Match (see 5.8 below). You will not like or understand what you are reading. Some of it could create confusion leading to an unsafe condition. It is not an exaggeration to say the CMP rules for Service Pistol EIC Matches are in total disarray. 

Competitors: Please write the CMP with your concerns. Now.


BrianD- With all due respect to Ms. Woods she is misinformed. See the following:

5.8 Firing Procedures
Pistol firing procedures in CMP-sanctioned matches must be conducted according to CMP Pistol Firing Procedures and Range Commands published as Annex A to these Rules.



Annex A, p. 86: 
"Competitors may not load magazines or their pistols until after the command LOAD"

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by davekp on 5/19/2017, 7:24 am

Bad technical writing. I think they should use the phrase "charge magazines" for the process of inserting rounds into a magazine. The term "load"  should be for inserting a charged magazine into the pistol.

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by dennymac on 5/19/2017, 9:45 am

While we are griping about rules and commands, it appears that there is a European lean to some of these changes. The whole starting the .22 EIC match timed and rapid fire stages from a 45 degree downward position is confusing as well. It is a 'precision pistol match'. Not a 'how quickly can I get on target' match. For crying out loud, why not start from a holster with an empty chamber. Oh wait, we don't have holsters in that match.
All EIC pistol matches should follow the EXACT same regiment. But, that is just my personal opinion. DennyMac

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Magload on 5/19/2017, 1:22 pm

This is what you get when the people writing the rules do not shoot BE.  Sounds good to them it works in other disciplines.   I don't hear the range commands very well anyway and have to watch the shooters on either side of me anyway. Don
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/19/2017, 3:03 pm

davekp wrote:Bad technical writing. I think they should use the phrase "charge magazines" for the process of inserting rounds into a magazine. The term "load"  should be for inserting a charged magazine into the pistol.
 As a technical writer by trade, I think I'll stay away from reading the CMP rule book until absolutely necessary.

Badly written rules and poorly assembled technical books give me headaches and hives.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by CR10X on 5/23/2017, 5:50 am

I'm still here.

For those of you shooting CMP pistol matches, please make sure the match follows Annex A commands and notes precisely.   That way, you will get 20 seconds for the first rapid fire string as Annex A provides no alternative time for that string.  (Check out the "Time" for the first string on page 89.)

The match should do this because it says right there at the top of Annex A:  

Annex A – Pistol Firing Procedures and Commands The following range procedures and range commands must be used to conduct Service Pistol and 22 Rimfire Pistol events.

You're welcome. 

CR

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by cdrt on 5/23/2017, 7:07 am

CR10X wrote:I'm still here.

For those of you shooting CMP pistol matches, please make sure the match follows Annex A commands and notes precisely.   That way, you will get 20 seconds for the first rapid fire string as Annex A provides no alternative time for that string.  (Check out the "Time" for the first string on page 89.)

Which is in direct conflict with Table 5 on page 50 of the current rule book.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/23/2017, 9:53 am

Isn't it OBVIOUS how the rules need corrected? 

Considering timed has ALWAYS been 20 per series. And rapid has ALWAYS been 10 per series. And that the command at the beginning clearly spells out the series timing:
"THIS STAGE WILL BE TWO 5-SHOT TIMED-FIRE/RAPID-FIRE SERIES AT 25 YARDS, WITH A TIME LIMIT OF 20/10 SECONDS PER SERIES."

The error should be clear to any honest person. However, with or without ridiculously unreasonable competitors trying to play pedant with the rulebook, the correction should be quick and easy and there's no excuse for the CMP not to immediately issue a correction.

Normally, I would have thought an Appendix is intended as an aide to reflect the rules and ensure the rules are correctly implemented. The rules and requirements that must be met ARE spelt out clearly earlier in the rulebook. The CMP annex should only be adding the range commands.

The course of fire is very clearly defined in:
7.2.1 Course of Fire 
7.3.1 Course of Fire
7.4.4 Course of Fire 
7.9.1 Course of Fire

In the section "1.4 CMP-Recognized Rifle and Pistol Events" all events clearly refer to Table 5 as the governing course of fire.

Again, it is painfully obvious that it is the Annex that is in error and needs to be corrected.

The table in Annex A on page 88, should be corrected as follows:
"WITH FIVE ROUNDS…LOAD "
should be preceeded with:
"THIS WILL BE YOUR FIRST 20- SECOND TIMED-FIRE/10-SECOND RAPID-FIRE SERIES. "
And page 89, 
"TIME: 20 seconds; after 20 seconds"
should be replaced with:
"TIME: 20 or 10 seconds; after 20 or 10 seconds"

Further, the creation of separate steps for timed and rapid in the Annex so there is no confusion and can be easily read shouldn't be such a big deal either.

IMO, it was a poor decision to combine the two and have the instructions loop back.

To be pedantic, I find is damned odd that the welcome is after targets are already placed down range and the instruction "THE LINE IS CLEAR … GO FORWARD…SCORE AND REPLACE TARGETS WITH A 25- YARD RAPID-FIRE TARGET." is wrong. It doesn't make clear that at the end of a rapid fire you would only score and recover targets.

If they're interested in a technical writer to go over the whole book, perhaps they could engage my services.
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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by Slartybartfast on 5/24/2017, 2:26 pm

Now that I'm looking at the rule book, I guess I'm contributing when no one else cares anymore.

Oh well.

Another poor formatting choice I noticed is paragraph numbering.

While it's a format I hate to use, for rules and laws, it is customary to number every single paragraph. That way it is easier to reference specific rules in detail.
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CMP admits 20 seconds for rapid fire is a mistake

Post by clark2245 on 6/1/2017, 2:36 pm

CR10X wrote:I'm still here.

For those of you shooting CMP pistol matches, please make sure the match follows Annex A commands and notes precisely.   That way, you will get 20 seconds for the first rapid fire string as Annex A provides no alternative time for that string.  (Check out the "Time" for the first string on page 89.)

The match should do this because it says right there at the top of Annex A:  

Annex A – Pistol Firing Procedures and Commands The following range procedures and range commands must be used to conduct Service Pistol and 22 Rimfire Pistol events.

You're welcome. 

CR
I got curious about this obvious screw up and sent an email to CMP asking about the conflict between the table in rule 7.3.1 showing 10 seconds for both rapid fire strings, and Annex A which says 20 seconds for the first string.   I got the following answer:


"Yes, please stick to 10 seconds for the rapid fire stages for pistol.  We are changing page 89  in the rule book on line for the first string of timed or rapid fire to read…
 
TIME: 20 or 10seconds; after 20 or 10 seconds
 
Thank you for bringing it to our attention!
 
Thanks,
 
Michelle Woods
Thanks for your continued support of the CMP.
Customer Service/Program Support
mwoods@thecmp.org
[url=tel:%28419%29 635-2141]419 635-2141 ext.722"[/url]

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

Post by ted.carter.568 on 6/13/2017, 11:45 am

As a Match Director, who ran both the CMP .22 and Service Pistol EIC, as directed by CMP in Annex A, and after reading all the comments concerning the CMP rules, specifically the loading command, I wrote to the CMP and discussed the issue and asked that they clarify their intent for loading pistol magazines.  Below is CMP's response. 

As a Match Director, Bullseye shooter, and NRA Pistol Committee member, I believe that both CMP and NRA range commands should be as close as possible to avoid confusion.  I know there are other pistol rules that CMP should consider addressing.  You are welcome to PM me with your recommendations and I'll compile them and let CMP know.

Ted

********************************************************************************************
Thank you for contacting me about your EIC pistol match at Gateway Rifle & Pistol Club.  I’ve spent quite a bit of time researching our pistol EIC Match procedures that we used here at Camp Perry & our travel Games and I’ve compared them to the written commands in our rulebook.  I now understand why there is some confusion on the loading definition and match procedures. 

We have not changed our loading definition or procedures for pistol EIC matches, but we have added match scripts to our rulebook to help aid clubs conducting EIC matches.  The intent was to have a clear easy script for clubs to use, but the wording we used in some areas of the scripts is confusing and can be misinterpreted.  

You are right, Annex A for 2016 & 2017 says: "Competitors may not load magazines or their pistols until after the command LOAD".  I can see where this sounds like you can not load your cartridges into your magazines. This was not the intent, the intent was that competitors would already have their magazines loaded with cartridges and they would LOAD their charged magazine into their pistol.   It should read something like:  “Competitors may not insert magazines or load their pistols until after the command LOAD.”   I also see where 2017 Annex A on page 84 is not worded clearly.   The definition of Loading should be changed to read:  Loading.  Inserting a charged magazine or loading a pistol may only be done after the command LOAD is given.  Loading pistols for all match series is done by inserting a magazine with 5 rounds, placing the magazine in the pistol and closing the action. 

We will work on making the commands clear and easy to understand.  We will get this updated on our website and send out an update to our clubs.  I really do appreciate you bringing this to our attention.  We update the rules each year, but sometimes important things get overlooked.

Christie Sewell
Programs Chief
Civilian Marksmanship Program
************************************************************************************************

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Re: NRA vs CMP Range Commands and Rules

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