Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

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Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by mspingeld on Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:40 pm

If I'm recalling correctly, there's a disagreement between Ed Hall's writing and the shooting analysis charts.

Ed, The chart says too much trigger finger (right handed shooter) will pull the gun to the right and put the shot right of center but I believe you've written that it's the opposite. The finger is indeed pulling to the right but the wrist is pushing to the left to compensate. The dot stays in the middle, due to the balance of these opposing forces, up until the instant that the shot breaks and the wrist wins the battle. The shot ends up left, not right.

Am I reading this correctly? Anything to add?

Thanks in advance,

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by mspingeld on Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:21 pm

I posted this to Ed's attention because it was his article that prompted the question but please, all are welcome to discuss.

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Jack H on Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:00 pm

I'm nowhere near Ed's calibre, but I will say you must not "compensate" with the wrist or anything like that.  Learn that straight back grip and trigger action in dryfire.  Pump the trigger to see if the sight moves.  Squeeze a little harder and release and see if the sight moves.
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Wobbley on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:57 pm

H
When you apply pressure other than straight back, there is a tendency to compensate in the wrist.  When the sear releases, this force in the wrist has nothing to react and the gun moves.  Then the trigger reaches the stop and the trigger finger now tries to move it back.  This is where dry firing and developing a proper grip and trigger finger placement from the get go is so important,
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Ed Hall on Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:53 am

It actually depends on several things as to where the result prints.  Even when you dryfire, if there's an imbalance, the sights will oscillate instead of just flying off in the direction of the wrist pressure.  Some of that is due to the trigger stop and some is due to other factors.  Sometimes you'll call shots exactly opposite to where they printed.  Sometimes this is because you're calling off the sights to target instead of the sights themselves.  In all these instances, the best results will be found by minimizing the imbalances.

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by mspingeld on Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:56 am

So, is some dry firing, blank wall, with a quick pull recommended? My thought is that a slow pull might hide the issue where the finger and wrist are fighting but some quick pulls may reveal a misplaced finger or other issues. Is this valid?

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by rreid on Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:19 pm

Ed Hall wrote:  Some of that is due to the trigger stop and some is due to other factors. .

Ed, could you elaborate on this?
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Ed Hall on Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:17 am

mspingeld wrote:So, is some dry firing, blank wall, with a quick pull recommended? My thought is that a slow pull might hide the issue where the finger and wrist are fighting but some quick pulls may reveal a misplaced finger or other issues. Is this valid?
A faster trigger - yes.  But, the real trigger operation speed should be determined without visual input.  Safely do this by pointing the "unloaded" pistol in a safe direction and operating the trigger without looking.  Learn what a pure, determined, operation is and then duplicate that operation while using the sighting system.  You might like to review the following:

Improving Hold and Trigger Manipulation
rreid wrote:
Ed Hall wrote:  Some of that is due to the trigger stop and some is due to other factors. .

Ed, could you elaborate on this?
There are lots of things that determine where the results print.  When the sear releases, there is a very brief time before the stop.  Any side pressure that was present is greatly diminished at that point, but only briefly, before it regains its original amount, or slightly more due to inertia.  These are manifested in the sights as twitches at the break.  Depending on things like lock time, to name one, the result can be in either direction.  Additionally, if the trigger was interrupted as opposed to purely increasing, any re-initiations past an interruption will cause a deflection. That's a reason I promote a faster operation.

A last thing to consider:  If your trigger is exceptionally slow, Are you really increasing trigger pressure, or just flexor/extensor pressure in a balanced manner that doesn't net any increase on the trigger?

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by mpolans on Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:25 pm

What do folks here think about Zins' views on trigger placement?

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/16/zins-on-bullseye-trigger-control/

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Chris Miceli on Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:30 pm

mpolans wrote:What do folks here think about Zins' views on trigger placement?

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/16/zins-on-bullseye-trigger-control/

it's about what works for you. Try it for a while see if you get any improvements.
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by dronning on Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:42 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
mpolans wrote:What do folks here think about Zins' views on trigger placement?

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/16/zins-on-bullseye-trigger-control/

it's about what works for you. Try it for a while see if you get any improvements.

+1 You really do have to try it.  For me I saw a difference in my dry firing right away and it works great for my 1911, but NOT when shooting a revolver, at least that is my experience.

- Dave
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Jack H on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:07 pm

mpolans wrote:What do folks here think about Zins' views on trigger placement?

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/10/16/zins-on-bullseye-trigger-control/

Using a particular point of the finger on the trigger has to assume the rest of the grip falls in place as to length of finger and size of grip and length of pull
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:26 pm

I find that the individual pistol/pistols can require a different trigger finger location/position on trigger. The grips, weight of pull and trigger length contribute to different positioning. Also is trigger pivoting or just sliding like on 1911. So on some I have my finger shoved way into trigger and others just the pad. You have to dry fire to see what works best to having the dot remain steady for technique being used.
Jon
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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

Post by weber1b on Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:57 pm

I'm not as smart or experienced as some of the other folks responding on this thread, but my results with my revolver went way up, particularly in sustained fire, when I stopped trying to shoot it like my 1911's and figured out what worked for that particular gun. My finger is nowhere near the same place with that gun as it is with the 1911's.

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Re: Trigger finger placement, I'm confused (Att: Ed Hall)...

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