Frustration with training

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Frustration with training

Post by hellsreach on 3/3/2012, 12:25 am

Last October, I bought my first gun (Glock 22) and started shooting. By November I decided I wanted to start competing, and decided to give bullseye a shot. In January in bought Ruger MkIII and accurized it a bit.

To train up, I decided to go through the NRA Marksmanship Program. I ran through the Handgun up through Expert with my Glock 22 and that was pretty easy the whole way through. Rather than shoot for Distinguished Expert in handgun and realizing I wanted to shoot bullseye, I changed to Conventional Bullseye Pistol (Aggregate) instead with my MkIII.

What can I say, but I've been finding bullseye MUCH harder. Shooting only one handed with a gun that must weight three or four times what my Glock does is no joke. Right now, I almost struggling to finish my 8 rounds for sharpshooter. I've done 7 qualifying rounds, but it has probably taken over 15 rounds just to get those 7. I struggle to hit 225 on the aggregate and the very thought that, for expert, I need to shoot 250 is daunting to say the least. In fact, my very highest score has been 232, which is one of only two rounds total that I've ever had over 230. By far, Slow Fire is my worst. Not only is the target a good deal smaller than timed/slow at 25 yds., but 10 shots in 10 minutes is almost more time than I can deal with. The long times almost make it harder to shoot, than the timed and rapid rounds. Anyway, I feel like I'm struggling to keep my pistol steady. I'm not really sure if my have optimal stance and posture. I don't know what I can do to improve the steadiness of my aim.

How could I ever hope to compete in a Bullseye 900 (cannot do a 2700, as I don't have a .45), if I'm struggling to shoot a 225 each round.

I need help. Any advice? Are there any good videos? I realize that practice is the only real way to improve. As it is, I toss anywhere from 200 - 400 shot down range per week. But I also know that practicing wrong can mean slowing improvement or worse, could actually create habits that could make of shooting worse. What, of what is a guy to do?

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Re: Frustration with training

Post by Steve B on 3/3/2012, 7:30 am

What part of the country are you in?

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Re: Frustration with training

Post by BE Mike on 3/3/2012, 7:50 am

Endurance takes a while and some training. Check out this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4z01YsRBOg4
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Re: Frustration with training

Post by Jack H on 3/3/2012, 8:04 am

Here is a bunch of links


Bullseye Pistol videos/articles

ZINS IN CANTON 2010
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ISfawT5_0&NR=1

STILL LEFT - Brian Zins & Tara Poremba
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LygfczVzpuo&feature=related

HARDBALL SERVICE PISTOL MATCH
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkp3cZm7_Xk&feature=related

Between Strings - 2010 Desert Midwinter Pistol Championships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDHPWYmFV1k&feature=related

2010 NRA National Pistol Championships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDtya_Sofk&feature=related

Article: Bullseye Pistol Info
http://southtexasshooting.org/multimedia/text/modern_pistol_dissertation.html

NRA "How to get started"
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/conventional.asp
[/b]


"WHAT IS BULLSEYE PISTOL?":

www.shootingwiki.org/index.php?title=NRA_Conventional_Pistol;

www.bullseyepistol.com

Here is a BULLSEYE RAPID FIRE video download. This is fired at 25 yards.
Five shots in ten seconds, two times. The soldier is firing a Beretta
9mm Service Pistol. Camera is a hi-tech see-through headset setup used
by the US Army Marksmanship Unit:

www.starreloaders.com/edhall/SP10rdString.mpg

CMP-EIC competitors be sure to have the required CMP Eligibility
Affidavit and Liability Agreement on file at the match host. See here:

www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Forms/Affidavit.pdf

NRA PISTOL QUALIFICATION LINKS:

www.nrahq.org/education/training/marksmanship/index.asp

Safety:

www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp

www.nssf.org/safety/basics/

www.usashooting.com/video.php

Organizations:

www.nra.org/programs.aspx

www.odcmp.com/

www.usashooting.org/

shooting.teamusa.org/

www.ossa.org/

usaac.army.mil/amu/

airforceshooting.org/

Competitions:

nrahq.org/compete/index.asp

nrahq.org/compete/gettingstarted.asp

odcmp.com/Competitions.htm

Pistol Marksmanship/Coaching and Training:

www.nrahq.org/education/

nrahq.org/compete/index.asp

bullseyepistol.com/

starreloaders.com/edhall/index.html

pilkguns.com/hhg.shtml

pilkguns.com/pistolcoaching.shtml




Last edited by Jack H on 3/3/2012, 8:13 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Frustration with training

Post by AllAces on 3/3/2012, 8:24 am

Bulleye shooting is probably the most difficult of all handgun sports. The factors that effect score are numerous: guns and equipment; ammo; range; weather conditions; many others. Then there is the shooter - your physical and mental abilities.

Here are a few tips:

1. Start a physical conditioning routine of weight training for upper and lower body strength, and conditioning for endurance. This will help you get through those all-day 2700 and DR matches.

2. Have the best equipment you can afford, and test different ammo for accuracy. If possible, buy a single stage press and start loading your own centerfire ammo.

3. Practice dry-fire weekly, in between the days you work out.

4. If possible, weekly range time.

5. Keep written notes; weather conditions; your stance and sighting; ammo used; errors made; mental state, such as being off concentration. Review the notes periodically, looking for things to improve. For example, I found my score was more consistent when I lifted my chin an inch or so. Now that is one of the steps I remember when I start to aim.

Bullseye is not for everyone, in fact, it is not for most shooters. It tends to be a rather close knit brotherhood of some of the finest people I have ever known. The kind of people who will give you their last battery for your red dot, share what is in their shooting box, and listen when your scores are not showing improvement.
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Re: Frustration with training

Post by Rob Kovach on 3/3/2012, 8:42 am

Here's the same interview tha BE Mike posted with some additional footage that BE Mike's link cut off: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=620LlSK3Oyo&feature=related

Also, I read all of these posts every month or 2: http://www.brianzins.com/category/fundamentals/

You can go pretty far with your Ruger, but I noticed a 20 point average improvement when I got rid of my daughter's MKII and had her start shooting my High Standard. She went from 210's to 230's just like that---and no practice! (she is more focused on volleyball and boys and crap right now)

Of course YOU can shoot a 900! How are you going to get a measure of your performance in a competition!! Bullseye is a competition from within yourself. A match is a distraction that makes you think you are competing with another shooter. You cannot control the performance of the other shooters---only your own. I'm looking at the scores from the January NRA Conventional Pistol Sectional in Wisconsin. (a .22 900) There were 10 people with scores between 600 and 217. If you were to shoot your 225 average, that would have put you at 675 and you would have shot better than 15 other competitors.

This sport is for shooters of all levels. I've been doing it for 20 years, and I'm still aweful compared to a Gunny Zins, but I improve all the time. Maybe not on score but by what I see when I make a good shot--and that is ok with me.

Keep setting attainable goals for yourself, and shoot for a result that is pleasing to YOU!


Last edited by Rob Kovach on 3/3/2012, 9:36 am; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Frustration with training

Post by DavidR on 3/3/2012, 8:51 am

Bullseye is one of a very few sports that since its inception over 60 years ago has never been mastered. A perfect score of 2700 had eluded many of the best shooters this country has ever seen. But that's what makes it interesting its a sport that you go out and try to better your game each match and that brings pride no matter if your a marksman or a high master.
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Re: Frustration with training

Post by Chris_D on 3/3/2012, 9:38 am

Well, let's see here. You started in October of last year which is only 5 months ago and you are concerned you need help and are not shooting good yet. You may want to slow the pony down and smell some roses. There are many shooters that have been shooting for decades and never moved out of Marksman or Sharpshooter class. This isn't an easy sport, it is very difficult to master. Even to advance into Expert class is very difficult, then when you start looking at Master class or High-Master class, a very few rare people can achieve that level of performance. I believe one of the reasons it isn't as popular as other shooting sports is because of the difficulty. Most people are not willing to put in the time and effort required to master a difficult sport.

Now, let's look at what needs to happen to move forward from where you are. You need to focus on the fundamentals - don't just learn them. Everyone that picks up a gun is told "sight alignment & trigger control" are the fundamentals. At that point many people assume the have learned them, however, learning about them and executing them are worlds apart. I have heard from many shooters this past year "I know the fundamentals, so I just don't understand what is wrong with my shooting". Well, again, knowing them and executing them is different.

About the most reliable means I know of to understand those two fundamentals is with dry fire practice. You are shooting a rimfire so you need to get some snap caps. Find a place where you can set up a target that you can point the gun at and pull the trigger (Without ammo- only snap caps). Spend some time, lots of time, dry firing. Observe what is happening when the trigger breaks!!! What you must see is NOTHING, nothing should change when you hear that click. If the gun moves at all, you are not performing trigger control.

Don't worry about your wobble as you are aiming. Your wobble will slowly be reduced as you learn to control a lot of muscles in your body to counter anything causing the wobble, including fatigue. Dry fire will reduce fatigue because you are working those muscles which are almost never used to work that way in normal life. As you gain that muscle control, your aiming and hold become more efficient.

Don't worry about your stance. The more you shoot, the more you will find what works for you. Don't force that, let it happen naturally.

Focus on gripping the gun consistantly. Don't just pick it up and shoot, fit the gun into your hand, learn how it feels, find a way to hold it so it doesn't move during recoil. This is a very important fundamental!!!

Breathe, you have to learn how to get enough oxygen in your body so you can hold your breath for 30 seconds (timed fire is 20 secs + 10 seconds of advance prep time). Some guys can take one deep breath, others require two. For me it is different depending on the air.

Don't over think everything. Start with a very basic routine, for getting the gun from the bench to the point of pulling the trigger for the first shot. Could be as simple as...
Stand and orient body - plant feet.
Grab gun and place it in shooting hand - check grip feel
Grab magazine, insert into gun, release slide
Start to draw gun up and take DEEP breath
Let gun settle on target - exhale
Aim and fire.

Don't spend every available brain wave trying to go over ALL of the fine details ALL of the time. Your mind will be so overwhelmed it won't be able to process the very simple task of taking the shot. Work through the finer details as an effort in training. You may have to spend hours and hours just getting the gun into your shooting hand until it starts to happen automatically. Then when that starts to feel automatic, take the next step, in your shot process and add that to the training. Get yourself to the point you can walk up to the bench and prepare to shoot without have to think about any specific details.

That hopefully will get you started and that is all the time I have now so good luck.

Chris

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Re: Frustration with training

Post by BE Mike on 3/3/2012, 2:48 pm

Even though it was a long time ago, I can still remember my struggles when I first took up the sport. I read all the articles in "The Pistol Shooter's Treasury" (this was before personal computers). It was overwhelming at times to try to remember to do all the things I was supposed to do to fire accurate shots. I should have kept a diary and developed a written shot plan, but I didn't know about those then. As your physical stamina develops, you must study all you can about the fundamentals of firing a 10 and series of 5 tens. As your written shot plan develops, you will find that you are developing good habits by attempting to do the correct things over and over. Your shooting diary will help you remember what you learned in training and at matches. The shot plan and shooting diary, if utilized will help you focus your training and improve more rapidly.
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Re: Frustration with training

Post by Paper-Puncher on 3/3/2012, 9:46 pm

As many have said its is a hard sport.....I struggle to maintian 270's with my .22's.....and I'm just starting with the .45.....you will be fine ...just slow down and relax....enjoy the time at the range ...I myself would get pissed if I didnt like my scores....now I find if I just relax it all comes together....one thing I did at one time and need to do again is I would use a 50ft target @ 25yds ....and just try to shoot round groups....never mind the score just nice and easy shoot the best group you can....work on trigger control ,breahing...and if the shot doesnt come toghter abort it and start over......holding a pistol out there with one hand trying to bust out the x-ring is by far the hardest shooting I have done.....you are not alone in your struggle for improvement and/or good scores.....

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Re: Frustration with training

Post by hellsreach on 3/4/2012, 2:05 pm

Thanks all for the great advice. As AllAces said, Bullseye does seem like a tight brotherhood. Look at all the posts to offer some advice to some greenhorn that just came on to whine.

Difficult though it is, I firmly believe that I picked to right flavor (if only there were, you know, actual competitions and leagues in Pennsylvania).

By the way, an correction to my original post. I mentioned that I could not do a 2700 because I don't have a .45. Well, that is until now. I just came back from a gun show where I picked up two Colt 1911s for $645. The are a bit scratched up, and definitely need some work to to them into competitive Wad guns, but I'd been looking for a decent 1911 at a decent price and they are Colts, so I have a good foundation to work from. This brings me to another question, but I think I'd better post it in the appropriate forum.

Thanks a bunch.

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Re: Frustration with training

Post by AllAces on 3/4/2012, 2:49 pm

Congrats on the Colts. Last weekend I shot an NRA Sectional 900 rimfire match in PA at an indoor range. Check the listing of events or google. PA should have a lot of 900, 1800 and 2700 matches this spring. Keep in touch and welcome to the BE brotherhood. Now we need to get you reloading.
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