1911 barrel feet battering

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1911 barrel feet battering

Post by DavidR on 1/28/2017, 12:04 pm

Ok so i bought a nice older colt bullseye 45 built by old school amorer, shoots good but i took it all apart for a good cleaning and noticed it had small gouge marks on the barrel feet about 1/8" above where they meet the barrel  below where the slode stop pin rests. Im guessing this was caused by weak recoil combined with too hot of loads but would value others opinions on the cause, effect and cure to prevent further damage
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by jglenn21 on 1/28/2017, 12:45 pm

Check the ears on your recoil spring guide. They should be tapered forward via a file or whatever.  I use a large rubber abrasive wheel. Probably Google it to find some examples
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Chris Miceli on 1/28/2017, 1:33 pm

I have those same marks, was from me when putting the gun back together. I usually slide the complete slide and recoil setup on top of the frame as one piece like a striker gun. Sometimes the guide rod becomes unsprung before the slide is fully on. Slamming the guide rod into the barrel
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/28/2017, 1:56 pm

Barrel link is either too short or the radius on the bottom lug needs to be reduced.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by DavidR on 1/28/2017, 6:48 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Barrel link is either too short or the radius on the bottom lug needs to be reduced.
Jon
I'm not sure in this case that is it, the wear pattern on the slide stop pin is perfect and I have seen this same thing in another well built gun. The two things both guns had in common was weak recoil springs and fired with factory loads. Could the marks be from the the hard cycling of the slide or is the link the real cause? I just find it hard to think both well known gunsmiths got the link size wrong. I can change the link do you think one size longer would help?
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/28/2017, 7:15 pm

Properly fit link will not allow battering from slide stop pin no matter the load. It happens when slide goes back into battery. Period!
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by DavidR on 1/29/2017, 2:29 pm


Thanks Jon, maybe some pictures will help, looking back at some of you and Jerry K's old posts on the feet looks like it could be what you said about the radius not being just right. the blue mark on the lower side of pic1 was where the edges had gouge marks on both sides and you can see the slight dimple near the top where it rolls over where the slide pin has impacted also better veiw of it in the last pic. Maybe you or others can tell more by these pictures whats going on for sure . oh the link was the #3 .278 standard. Thanks for the help.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/29/2017, 3:24 pm

Yep it's radius or too short link.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by DavidR on 1/30/2017, 5:14 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:Yep it's radius or too short link.
Jon
So from the pics can you say which one it my be?
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 1/31/2017, 5:10 am

David, if the gun is unlocking the way is should then I would radius the front of the lugs more for clearance.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/31/2017, 8:21 am

As KC said more than likely its the radius on the lug (from picture). But be careful. If link is too short and has been egg shaped for function it will throw you off and you will remove to much of the radius and lose lock up surface.
They both have to be correct.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Bigtrout on 1/31/2017, 8:32 am

I have the same condition, not as deep, in the same area on my RO9.  After cleaning my link sometimes does not drop down so the pin can capture it (focus lapse) and when I rack the slide the ears stop the travel.  I've filed the dings so they do not extend beyond the ears surfaces.  Could this have been the former owner's mistake also?  FWIW.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Froneck on 1/31/2017, 9:37 am

I'm thinking the radius is too much, probably needed because of the short link. With a large radius the link is lifting the barrel which will cause a noticeable bump just before the barrel lifts into the locking lugs. That bump is caused by the greater force exerted on the barrel due to the greater amount of leverage hitting due to hitting the pin higher. Making the radius bigger will increase the upward force until the barrel is lifted by the link which is worse. Also from what I see if that blue mark is on one side is that the radius is not the same on both sides.
If your not having a closing problem now you soon will.
 Let your slide close slooowly with no ammo. About 3/16" before the barrel hood touches the slide, is there a bump just before the barrel enters the locking lugs? If letting the slide close slowly by hand will it stop at this bump and need a slight nudge to close? If it don't will it with a dummy or live ammo?

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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Jon Eulette on 1/31/2017, 10:19 am

Froneck wrote:I'm thinking the radius is too much, probably needed because of the short link. With a large radius the link is lifting the barrel which will cause a noticeable bump just before the barrel lifts into the locking lugs. That bump is caused by the greater force exerted on the barrel due to the greater amount of leverage hitting due to hitting the pin higher. Making the radius bigger will increase the upward force until the barrel is lifted by the link which is worse. Also from what I see if that blue mark is on one side is that the radius is not the same on both sides.
If your not having a closing problem now you soon will.
 Let your slide close slooowly with no ammo. About 3/16" before the barrel hood touches the slide, is there a bump just before the barrel enters the locking lugs? If letting the slide close slowly by hand will it stop at this bump and need a slight nudge to close? If it don't will it with a dummy or live ammo?

Sorry but this is worst description I've ever seen for describing function of the link and its relationship to barrel going into and out of battery. 
Mission of link is to pull  barrel out of slide locking lugs during recoil when slide moves to rear. When slide goes forward back into battery the barrel is riding the link until the slidestop pin passes the radius (link is camming barrel up) and then the link is not supposed to exert any force at all but is only along for the ride now. If link is too long it will cause link lock up instead of barrel lockup. If link is to short slidestop pin will batter radius of bottom barrel lug. If radius is to big it will get battered from slidestop pin when going into battery. Links need to be fit to the pistol or the slidestop pin needs modified like Jerry Keefer does it.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by jglenn21 on 1/31/2017, 10:30 am

The slide stop pin cut Jerry K. showed in another thread is the cat's ****.  Really slick idea and allows for a pretty long lower lockup length.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by 1joel1 on 1/31/2017, 10:53 am

jglenn21 wrote:The slide stop pin cut Jerry K. showed in another thread is the cat's ****.  Really slick idea and allows for a pretty long lower lockup length.

Wait, what... we can't say "meow" anymore? Sad


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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Slartybartfast on 1/31/2017, 10:54 am

Jon Eulette wrote:Sorry but this is worst description I've ever seen for describing function of the link and its relationship to barrel going into and out of battery.

For the uninitiated, like myself, who have no experience with 1911s or their inner workings all of this was incomprehensible to me.

The following animation really helped me understand:
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Froneck on 1/31/2017, 12:24 pm

Riding the link is not good. The  Floyd Aikman showed me what happens when the link is allow to ride. The barrel should Not be lifted by the link. Another friend of mine that graduated the Colorado School of Gunsmithing also said the link should never be involved with closing the slide, it's purpose is to pull the barrel down when opening.
 Long ago when I was building Adam's first and only Wad gun I did as everyone does but had the problems as I described. Floyd Aikman being a friend of mine and lived near me in NJ but later moved to Alabama and I to PA. During one of his trips to my shop since I was doing work on the Free Pistol he designed and making the barrels for the 41's he built, Floyd showed me a better way! Adam's gun now closed with no effort, no bump and will close empty with only the weight of the slide.
 Adam could shoot the entire season without a single alibi and would shoot the local match at Harrisburg that is of the Police L course and NO alibis allowed! Nor did he ever have an alibi at Perry with it! Later he took that gun to the AMU and is the one they tested and shot 50X with it out of their rest! Reason they shot 50X is they didn't think it would shoot so kept shooting another 10 shots and gave up at 50, Adam still has the target!
 The link when closing will cause the barrel to have a large upward force on the slide as it closes and therefore greater drag, as it pivots the force increases because the mechanical advantage increases and causes that noticeable bump! The same if the radius contacts the slide stop pin high on it's radius. Over time you will notice the edges of the upper lugs rounding and some even round the edges of the lugs to compensate.
 If the lower lug angle were to remain continuous without a radius it will hit the slide stop pin almost at the center, the angle and the radius of the pin will cause a slight upward force until the flat rides above the pin. Though the flat is not really flat but a slight angle that will wedge the barrel into the lugs when closed. The increase in drag is what is probably giving those that lighten the recoil spring to shoot lighter loads a closing problem!
 Being I had already cut the radius I spray welded carbide on the lower lug and ground it with a diamond wheel. Because of that the lower lug has remained though the radius has increased from almost none to slight.
 Further more that gun still shoots great after 20 years! And when tested and shot the 50X it had been shooting for 10 years prior.
 Over the years I have built 1911's for friends and relatives of mine, all with the same result! Currently I did one for another friend of mine that had it built by someone I won't mention because he's known here and was greatly disappointed in it! He was so impressed that I have 2 more of his guns to do! One of them was by the guy that TIG welds the rails and regrinds them. My friend is very particular and sued a smith at Perry!
 Floyd Aikman told me him, Jimmy Clark and a few other smiths (names I have forgotten I seem to think one was the other Chambers not the current one) would  meet at Perry and discuss options to make target guns shoot better. Floyd has built guns for some of the greatest shooters! He liked to take a simple 1911 and make it into a match tack driver and used GI barrels to keep cost low for new shooters! His instructions allowed me to make great guns for myself, family and friends. I don't do it as a business, I don't have the time. Floyd introduced me to Jimmy Clark we were on first name basis. George Madore and I talked often too, he too agreed with what Floyd told me. Sadly all have passed, I miss them!


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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by DavidR on 1/31/2017, 12:27 pm

Thanks for all the input, with it i believe it was the radius on the feet right before it rolled over at top. this was where the round impact marks were from the slide pin so i used a diamond file to just smooth out that area and give it a bit more radius. The gun hand cycles very smooth now, will shoot it tonight to see if any new marks appear.
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Axehandle on 1/31/2017, 5:32 pm

Just for an oh yeah...  I've had guns with exceptionally tight bushings and have used the barrel to gently tap the bushing out.   I remember marks similar to these and always thought they came from tapping the bushing.
 
We got to enjoy Floyd down here his last years...  He'd drive an old nasty corvette to matches.  I think that he wasn't just a good gunsmith.  Seems like there was a 2650 patch in the lid of his gun box too.

The Original Joe Chambers was a good friend too...  They broke the mold after those guys were made...

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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by Froneck on 1/31/2017, 11:05 pm

Yes Floyd was a 2650 club member. Very nice guy and liked by everyone that met him. If my memory is correct Floyd shot 2650 while stationed at Ft Mammoth NJ

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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by DavidR on 2/1/2017, 6:09 pm

After reworking the radius and testing with 25 rounds of various loads and checking the feet there was no sign of any battering. thanks for the help
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by james r chapman on 2/1/2017, 6:25 pm

Good info and discussion
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Re: 1911 barrel feet battering

Post by tenx9 on 3/3/2017, 6:48 pm

I believe one of the last  long slide .38 special 1911s he made for me as a favor. He was no longer building them and a friend of mine convinced him to make one. Considering the price I paid, Floyd didn't do it for money, but to promote the sport. Gentleman period..

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