Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

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Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/29/2017, 2:27 pm

Could use some help.  I recently acquired a couple of pistols chambered in .32 long which I want to shoot CF with. I was "warned" by several that reloading the 32Long could be "challenging", but....  Yikes!  I have started reloading with my Dillon 550, using used Fiocchi brass, 96 gr HBWCs and 1.5 gr. Bullseye. The reloads chamber and fire fine,  The issue is "fliers".  Really big ones! I initially noticed it shooting offhand (25 yards at B* repair centers). I might get 9 in the black, but one completely missing the entire target . Yesterday I used a bench-rest with the goal of reducing human error as much as possible. This narrowed the groups quite a bit but still fliers 1 out of every 10-15 rounds.  With the BR, the fliers seemed to be maybe 8-10", high, low, etc. 1 or 2 actually looked like they went into the cardboard target sideways, although it could have been 2 fliers side by side?

Are fliers like this common?  Uncommon? Unheard of?

I have tried to focus on the powder consistency by getting the XS Dillon measure, a Uniqutek Arredondo micrometer powder measure, as well as following their tips.  I am getting consistemcy of +1 .1 grain (i.e. 1.4-1.6 with most at 1,5 gr). 

The bullets came with one of the guns, I don't know the brand.  They measure at the base .3155 -.3185.  

Also, I don't get the fliers with factory Fiocchi cartridges. 

I have reloaded for years, although not for bullseye, but have never notice this issue (fliers) with any other size or gun.

At this point, I am not worried about accuracy itself, since I can use factory ammo at matches.  I am, however, trying to figure out how/why I am getting such huge fliers?  I expected the variances in powder consistency, used brass etc to reduce accuracy compared to factory, which is OK, but didn't expect this.

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by Magload on 1/29/2017, 2:41 pm

Have you weighted the bullets to see if some might be way off.  I would give a some new bullets a try.  Don
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/29/2017, 3:34 pm

I did weigh about 100 or so.  94.80 to 95.75 gr. I was assumimg this difference wouldn't cause such extreme fliers?

I will try new bullets, any recommendations?

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by Chris Miceli on 1/29/2017, 4:01 pm

Slug your barrel and shoot the Speer 98 lhbwc
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by messenger on 1/29/2017, 5:23 pm

Are you sizing your reloads? I have found for the long line once shot unsized brass works. If you are sizing with standard dies that could contribute. I had Lee Precision make me over sized sizing dies. They made me .333 and .334 dia dies. You will need an over size case expander. Lee makes one that's .314. I had Lee make me one that's .3145. Use a light taper crimp also. I trickle all my long line loads to be exact. When you swing back and forth + or - .1gr that can make a 15% variation in the small amount of powder being used. Still that shouldn't cause flyers. My theory is the projectile is being deformed especially the rear in the loading process. All my long line is trickled and loaded on a single stage press to ensure uniformity. The best projectile I have found so far has been the Magnus 98gr LWC. I was able to get some H&N HBWC from Canada. These were very hard to come by but am waiting for it to warm up to test loads.

Bill
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/29/2017, 7:01 pm

Messenger, not sure I understood your question re: re sizing?  I resize the breass, of course, not sure how to resize a lead bullet, if that is what your mean?

I think perhaps I didn't phrase my thread correctly?  I always thought of a "flier" as one than was 2-4 " off at 25 yards assuming no human error. I thought 8" to be super unusual, but perhaps it is not?

Will  a tenth or two of a grain of powder, or a couple thousanths off on size cause 8" fliers in a 32?

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by fc60 on 1/29/2017, 7:34 pm

Greetings,

In the 32 WadCutter, 0.1 grain moves the velocity about 30 FPS with the target velocities we use. 650-750 FPS.

Your measure may be more accurate than you think. It is very difficult to weigh individual charges on typical reloading scales. Set your machine up to dispense 10 charges using a normal loading cadence. Weigh all and divide by ten for an individual average. If the machine is working well, ten charges should weigh +/- 0.2 grains every time.

I suggest testing with a chronograph to help diagnose the problem.

Ammunition in the range of 720 FPS seems to perform the best with the testing I have done.

You did not mention what pistol you are using. If it is a "normal" Euro-gun, chances are the barrel groove diameter is 0.313"-0.314". Again, more information is needed for a proper diagnosis.

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by messenger on 1/30/2017, 5:36 am

gregbenner wrote:Messenger, not sure I understood your question re: re sizing?  I resize the breass, of course, not sure how to resize a lead bullet, if that is what your mean?

I think perhaps I didn't phrase my thread correctly?  I always thought of a "flier" as one than was 2-4 " off at 25 yards assuming no human error. I thought 8" to be super unusual, but perhaps it is not?

Will  a tenth or two of a grain of powder, or a couple thousanths off on size cause 8" fliers in a 32?
I was talking about sizing brass not bullets. I don't think a tenth or two variance of powder will cause a flier but a slight difference in point of impact. I believe a deformed bullet or pushing one too fast will. Dave Wilson is far more qualified than I am to comment on this. I have gotten most of my information from reading his posts. At 25 yards I wouldn't worry too much about 2". 4" there is a little problem. 8" at 25 yards would probably be off the paper at 50 yards. Every once in a while I get 2"-4" fliers at 25 yards with my 22's using CCI SV. It just happens. If it happens a lot, I would say there is a problem.

Bill
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by JKR on 1/30/2017, 8:12 am

Greg,

I don't know what bullet you're using but if it's for your Benelli it needs to be .314 at least. I've found nothing better than H&N.

Try this. Using some of your once fired brass from your pistol, skip the sizing die altogether. I've had good success with this for my long line loads. I'm using 1.8 BE and a light roll crimp. I do size my brass for sustained fire. 

In the future I will be trying Messengers idea on the bigger sizing die. Also the Magnus bullet.

32's are great fun when you get them working!

Jim

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/30/2017, 10:42 am

JKR wrote:Greg,

I don't know what bullet you're using but if it's for your Benelli it needs to be .314 at least. I've found nothing better than H&N.

Try this. Using some of your once fired brass from your pistol, skip the sizing die altogether. I've had good success with this for my long line loads. I'm using 1.8 BE and a light roll crimp. I do size my brass for sustained fire. 

Jim
 Jim, as I mentioned in the 1st post, the bulleys  measure at the base .3155 -.3185.  


I'm not sure how to skip the sizing die, since that is also the deprimer?  I use a Dillon 550.

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/30/2017, 11:34 am

fc60 wrote:Greetings,

Your measure may be more accurate than you think. It is very difficult to weigh individual charges on typical reloading scales. Set your machine up to dispense 10 charges using a normal loading cadence. Weigh all and divide by ten for an individual average. If the machine is working well, ten charges should weigh +/- 0.2 grains every time.

I suggest testing with a chronograph to help diagnose the problem.

You did not mention what pistol you are using. If it is a "normal" Euro-gun, chances are the barrel groove diameter is 0.313"-0.314". Again, more information is needed for a proper diagnosis.

Cheers,

Dave

I agree re: accuracy of the powder, doesn't seem like this is the issue? 

The guns are a GSP Expert and a Benelli MP090S.  I slugged the GSP barrel yesterday, .3135  You are right on !!.   (bullets .3155-.3185, most in the middle of this range).  Will slug the Benelli today. 

I don't have a Chrono, not sure I could set one up at the local range?  I'll ask them today.

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by fc60 on 1/30/2017, 4:44 pm

Greetings,

With the information you have provided, I suggest the following loads.

Lapua brass, sized to 0.335". (Fiocchi brass may be okay as well, if it is head stamped 32 WadCut.)
Small Pistol Primer, WSP, R-P, Fed, or CCI.
Either 1.60 grains of Winchester WST or 1.70 grains of Alliant Bullseye.
Seat bullet shoulder flush to case mouth.
Taper crimp so mouth measures 0.325".

Visually inspect the base of each bullet for defects prior to seating.

The above loads usually chronograph at 720 FPS +/- 20 FPS.

The diameter of your Mystery bullets concerns me. Swaged bullets should be more uniform in diameter. Is it possible you are measuring the bullet and lubricant?

It is important that the chamber and barrel are totally free of leading prior to testing or tournament shooting.

The above recommendations are for the "Mystery" bullets only. Once you run out, we need to apply a different loading technique based on the components you select.

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by bdas on 1/30/2017, 6:44 pm

gregbenner wrote:... the fliers seemed to be maybe 8-10", high, low, etc. 1 or 2 actually looked like they went into the cardboard target sideways, although it could have been 2 fliers side by side?

I bring this up because no one else seemed to comment on this part.  I don't have any experience reloading 32s, but one of the guys I shoot with had a problem that sounds very similar to what you're experiencing, but with 38 specials.  Most worked ok, but about 1 in 10 would be a horrible flier, and often impacted the target sideways when they didn't miss entirely.  His research suggested that a combination of the barrel twist rate, bullet weight, and velocity was right on the edge of allowing the bullets to tumble in flight. He increased the amount of powder a fairly small amount (0.3gr IIRC), and the problem went away for him.  Just one data point, and possibly irrelevant to your situation, but it sounded similar, so I thought I'd pass it along.

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by dhenry132 on 1/30/2017, 10:48 pm

messenger wrote:Are you sizing your reloads? I have found for the long line once shot unsized brass works. If you are sizing with standard dies that could contribute. I had Lee Precision make me over sized sizing dies. They made me .333 and .334 dia dies. You will need an over size case expander. Lee makes one that's .314. I had Lee make me one that's .3145. Use a light taper crimp also. I trickle all my long line loads to be exact. When you swing back and forth + or - .1gr that can make a 15% variation in the small amount of powder being used. Still that shouldn't cause flyers. My theory is the projectile is being deformed especially the rear in the loading process. All my long line is trickled and loaded on a single stage press to ensure uniformity. The best projectile I have found so far has been the Magnus 98gr LWC. I was able to get some H&N HBWC from Canada. These were very hard to come by but am waiting for it to warm up to test loads.

Bill
I was having the same problems with flyers out of a Hammerli 280 32 S&W L. Three rounds would be touching at 25 yd and two would be flyers.
Someone on this forum ( don't remember who ) suggested to use a larger expander.  I dug around till I found a .314 expander and that fixed the problem. The wad cutter powder funnel/expander from Dillon was .310  No more flyers except the ones I install.
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/31/2017, 11:01 am

Greetings,

With the information you have provided, I suggest the following loads.

Lapua brass, sized to 0.335". (Fiocchi brass may be okay as well, if it is head stamped 32 WadCut.)
Small Pistol Primer, WSP, R-P, Fed, or CCI.
Either 1.60 grains of Winchester WST or 1.70 grains of Alliant Bullseye.
Seat bullet shoulder flush to case mouth.
Taper crimp so mouth measures 0.325".

Visually inspect the base of each bullet for defects prior to seating.

The above loads usually chronograph at 720 FPS +/- 20 FPS.

The diameter of your Mystery bullets concerns me. Swaged bullets should be more uniform in diameter. Is it possible you are measuring the bullet and lubricant?

It is important that the chamber and barrel are totally free of leading prior to testing or tournament shooting.

The above recommendations are for the "Mystery" bullets only. Once you run out, we need to apply a different loading technique based on the components you select.

Cheers,

Dave

Thx Dave.  I'm not sure I understand your suggestion to "sized to 0.335"?  I do have Fiocchi brass, but I use a Dillon 550. Should I measure the brass after I run it thru stage 1 (deprime, size and re-prime)?  


I just measured a few cases after sizing/priming, and they measure .333 at the mouth. I don't think there is any way to adjust it.   The cases before resizing/priming are .335, but I can't see how to re-prime without resizing? I measure the crimp, and it has been .335, but I have just adjusted it to .325.  Will re-crimp current stock of 100 or so.


Was using 1.6 gr Bullseye, have increased to 1.7. My current plan is to re crimp existing cartridges, and then re load some at 170 gr vs 160. 


Is the thought that .002" size, after sizing, but before the next 3 stages, could cause the fliers I am experiencing?

I have ordered some new bullets to try as well.


Greg

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by fc60 on 1/31/2017, 11:53 am

Greetings,

It is difficult to diagnose a problem without seeing the operation.

Most fliers, based on well documented articles I have read, are attributed to defects in the bullet base.

Bear in mind that any bullet you purchase is mass produced. When you cast or swage them yourself, each bullet is handled individually and fully inspected by you, the end user.

Even the high quality H&N bullets are bulk packaged in boxes of 500 with eight boxes per case. I did buy a full case of 2,000 and while well packaged, they have to endure the journey from Germany to Canada to South Prairie, WA. I cannot imagine the treatment a 60 pound box of Lead gets in transit.

While loading the H&N bullets on my machine, I do come across several that are damaged. A long time ago, Lapua sold individual bullets for reloading in plastic "egg cartons" of 50 bullets individually packaged. Now they are sold in bulk boxes of 500.

Recent testing of a factory Pardini Barrel using the current Speer HBWC bullets were not acceptable. Yes, I can get ten ring accuracy; but, the occasional flier ruins not only the group but your score and confidence as well. Similar results occur with factory Haemmerli, Walther, and Benelli barrels I have tested. Using the 0.314" H&N bullet reduced the groups to a consistent ten ring group at 50 yards.

The 32 WadCutter, in my opinion, is not as forgiving as the 45 ACP and requires a much greater effort to achieve X-ring accuracy. Not everyone is willing nor have the tools to do so. Personally, I have built swaging dies to do my own bullets. It is very labor intensive, emphasis on labor.

Try loading your "Mystery Bullets" in clean, fired, unsized cases. The large diameter of the bullets should do well in your barrels.

I do not load with a Dillon so I cannot offer much help in this arena. I suspect you should be able to remove the sizing die at the first station?

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/31/2017, 2:52 pm

Dave, thx so much for taking the time for such a detailed reply. I see what you mean re: soft lead bullets getting damaged. If i inspect the mystery bullets, should I look for obvious out of round, bent issues?  Or should I measure them?

I have ordered a Chrono, so will be able to test bullet velocity for consistency, both as the bullet leaves the barrel, and further down range (my thought is that perhaps a wobble in the bullet will slow it down more than a normal bullet and although muzzle velocity would be similar, POI velocity might be lower??).

Also, I called Dillon, and they sold me a "universal decapping die" which will not re-size the case.

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/31/2017, 3:13 pm

Also, slugged the Benelli.  Loaded a bullet with no powder into a primed case and fired into some towels. The bullet exited the barrel, and measured .311.  Is this an acceptable way to slug the barrel?

The GSP measured .3135. Interestingly, the fliers in the Benelli "seemed a bit smaller. Does the tighter barrel make sense?

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by fc60 on 1/31/2017, 6:10 pm

Greetings Greg,

Check your PM box.

Regarding the chronograph, which brand did you order?

With the bullets, the eye can detect very small movement when trained. If you rotate a bullet in your fingers and focus on one feature, like a grease groove or the base, the changing light will show the variations quite readily.

Visualize a leaking hose faucet. The pressure squirts the water out at the weakest link. Same with a bullet moving through the barrel. Ideally, the bullet base is square and exits with equal pressure all along the base and muzzle. Inspecting each bullet will remove the majority of the bad fliers. Sadly, I have not figured out how to weed out the remaining few that wander from the group.

Most Benelli pistols I have measured were 0.314" groove diameter. If yours is 0.311", it may have been rebarreled. A definite plus if they used a faster twist. In this case, use the Speer HBWC and you should get ten ring groups at 50 yards.

Your method of slugging the barrel sounds interesting. Depending on the alloy of the bullet it should provide a valid measurement. I have precision gauges that measure the groove diameter directly, so no slugging needed in my Mann Kave.

Once you sort out the reloading part of the 32, I sincerely believe you will enjoy shooting the pistols. The Walther is exceptionally reliable.

Cheers,

Dave

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by gregbenner on 1/31/2017, 8:40 pm

Dave, re: the chrono, I order a LabRadar. It seemed like the easiest for using indoors with pistols. Plus the two indoor ranges I belong to don't allow anyone or anything forward of the firing line. 

I think I will slug both barrels again. After going thru the barrel, they have grooves in them, and I could get different measurements by a .001-002 depending precisely where I placed the calipers (i.e. in the groove, or on top of the groove (make any sense??). 

Why is a tighter barrel better, or is it due to availability of bullets in the US? 

Is it "easy" to determine what "twist" my barrel has?

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by noylj on 2/1/2017, 8:44 pm

Slug with slugs that are at least 0.005" larger than you expect.
Pull some seated bullets and check the diameter. If the diameter is smaller than when they went it, you need a larger expander (if you are ONLY flaring the case mouth, that would be a major cause right there).
I find unsized cases are best, with a Lee .32 S&W Long FCD used as a sizing die the next best option.
Seating the bullet straight is a real challenge. I find that I need to over flare the case mouth so about 1/4 of the bullet is in the case and the bullet is square before seating. Long wadcutter bullets really want to cant/tilt during seating and you have to be sure you get them started square and they are deep enough that they'll stay that way.
You want the bullets to be at least 0.001" larger than the actual groove diameter of the barrel. If the groove diameter varies down the bore, you have a major problem. The high point of the slug is the barrel groove diameter. You want the largest measurement from the slug and the bullet to be 0.001" larger than that.
Finally, you'll be lucky to ever match factory ammo.

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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by fc60 on 2/2/2017, 11:24 am

Greetings Greg,

Looking forward to your field report on the LabRadar unit.

Regarding twist, the barrels are so short that marking a cleaning rod and measuring the rotation would be a challenge.

You could lay one bullet from each barrel side by side and examine them with a magnifying glass. If the angle of the rifling appears the same, chances are they will be around 18.75" twist. A faster twist barrel will have a steeper angle.

For the 0.314" euro-barrels, I either swage my own or use H&N 0.314' bullets. I have tested barrels with 0.311" bores and Speer HBWC and they show marked improvement over the euro-barrels.

My old Haemmerli SP-20 custom barrel measured 0.308" and shot the Speer quite well. My personal best of 884 was fired with that barrel using out of the box Speer HBWC. During my peak, I would average 870's regularly with many clean targets at 25 yards. Sadly, I never cleaned a 50 yard target.

Watch eBay for a good used Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, Tesa, or Etalon 0-1" micrometer. Avoid ones made in Communist China. Some are offered as like new since the previous owner took care of their tools and no longer need them. Calipers are fine for "getting close" measurements. In the shop, they were used for +/- 0.001" work.

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by messenger on 2/2/2017, 2:44 pm

fc60 wrote:Greetings  Greg,

Looking forward to your field report on the LabRadar unit.

Regarding twist, the barrels are so short that marking a cleaning rod and measuring the rotation would be a challenge.

You could lay one bullet from each barrel side by side and examine them with a magnifying glass. If the angle of the rifling appears the same, chances are they will be around 18.75" twist. A faster twist barrel will have a steeper angle.

For the 0.314" euro-barrels, I either swage my own or use H&N 0.314' bullets. I have tested barrels with 0.311" bores and Speer HBWC and they show marked improvement over the euro-barrels.

My old Haemmerli SP-20 custom barrel measured 0.308" and shot the Speer quite well. My personal best of 884 was fired with that barrel using out of the box Speer HBWC. During my peak, I would average 870's regularly with many clean targets at 25 yards. Sadly, I never cleaned a 50 yard target.

Watch eBay for a good used Brown & Sharpe, Starrett, Tesa, or Etalon 0-1" micrometer. Avoid ones made in Communist China. Some are offered as like new since the previous owner took care of their tools and no longer need them. Calipers are fine for "getting close" measurements. In the shop, they were used for +/- 0.001" work.

Cheers,

Dave



Hi Dave,

What do you think of those "inside tubular" micrometers. Would they be as accurate as slugging a barrel?

Bill
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by fc60 on 2/2/2017, 10:50 pm

Greetings,

I use a set of Brown & Sharpe "Intrimiks". They are three legged gauges that generally fit in between the rifling to measure the bore, as long as you have six lands and grooves.

The gauges are accurate to +/- 0.0001"

Cheers,

Dave
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Re: Huge Fliers with .32Long Reloads?

Post by Ghillieman on 2/3/2017, 6:50 pm

Loading for the 32 wadcutter is a process that starts with the barrel.

Your barrel twist rate will tell you what length bullet you will need and what velocity you must reach. If you have a typical slow twist barrel then you might look at lighter weight bullets (shorter axis to stabilize) and higher velocities (to raise rpm and gyroscopic stability).

Next is barrel diameter. You want a projectile about one thousandth over the barrel diameter (for 32 caliber) and an expander the same size as the bullet you select, ie. 314 diameter barrel then .314 diameter expander. When you size brass is springs back slightly, this slight spring back from the expander will be enough to hold your bullet in place without damaging it.

If your going to use a Dillon powder meter, they are more accurate with ball powders.
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