Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

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Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by john bickar on 2/8/2017, 7:04 pm

In SSUSA.



A good read.
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by rreid on 2/8/2017, 8:24 pm

Thanks for posting
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by jmdavis on 2/9/2017, 10:10 pm

Great stuff. It's like lecture notes for his class.
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by bdas on 2/10/2017, 3:52 pm

Can anyone expound upon or further explain how or why having and following a shot process solves the problem of jerking the trigger (or other anticipation issues), as Zins suggests in the last section of Part II?

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/10/2017, 4:21 pm

Shot plan describes execution. Proper trigger squeeze is execution of your squeeze. Only through dry practice can you develop proper squeeze. Once you know what it is you put it into your shot plan. Trigger squeeze is #1 reason for not shooting a 10. All the other fundamentals can be close, but the trigger squeeze is what makes it a 10 or not. So learn what a 10 looks like and feels like. Then put that into your shot plan. If you flinch and jerk no shot plan in the world will correct that. So the shot plan is what you are going to do (replicate) to each and every shot.
Jon
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by dronning on 2/10/2017, 4:27 pm

bdas wrote:Can anyone expound upon or further explain how or why having and following a shot process solves the problem of jerking the trigger (or other anticipation issues), as Zins suggests in the last section of Part II?
This is my take on what he said.
1st, remember to dry fire 10x live fire.
Given that when you follow the same shot process during dry fire (especially on a blank wall), there is no snatching of the trigger.  You have to do this enough that your subconscious takes over.  Then when you live fire and you follow the process your focus is on what is suppose to happen next in your process and nothing else.  As Brian indicated when he left his process that's when he'd try and snatch a shot. Remember he also said that the trigger starts moving (roll trigger) before he enters the black.  For a crisp the pressure would start building. 

- Dave
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by CR10X on 2/11/2017, 7:42 am

A shot plan and the shot process are two different things. The shot plan is the series of steps shooters use to prepare, execute, recover and evaluate a shot or string. The shot process is the collection of actions required to get the gun into position (alignment), establishing sight picture, operating the trigger, etc. As long as the shot process is progressing approately to complete an acceptable shot we are in our shot process. Just focus on your choosen item (front sight, dot) and see everything that's happening. If the process doesn't look right, something is distracting, losing focus, etc., then we can have the issues described that can lead to jerking, snatching, chicken finger, etc. IF we try to continues the process.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by bdas on 2/13/2017, 3:55 pm

Thanks guys.  

I'm struggling to avoid jerking the trigger, specifically during rapid fire with the 45.  I've been pretty happy with my slow fire (low 90's), and my timed fire (mid 90s), and my 22 rapid fire is ok (low 90s), but my 45 rapid fire is a horrible mess.  Using a shot timer, I've timed myself shooting 10 well-aimed shots comfortably in about 14 seconds.  But when I try to speed things up to rapid fire pace (10 seconds), I end up with scores in the 60's and 70's.  They are almost all down and to the left, suggesting that I'm jerking/yanking the trigger.  Part of what has me perplexed is that, yes, when it "feels" bad, it is really bad, and sometimes when it "feels" good, it is good, but sometimes when it "feels" good, it turns out that it is still really bad.  So I don't think I have a good feel for exactly where I'm going off the rails.  

So, I'm VERY interested in fixing my rapid fire shot process.  I'll try to digest what you've suggested, and try to focus on the shot process in rapid fire.  Any suggestions on a proper shot process specifically for rapid fire would be appreciated.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by jmdavis on 2/13/2017, 4:04 pm

Light or moderate loads and drive the gun back on the target. You don't wait for the recoil to bring the gun down, you bring it down. Or that's as near as I can understand it. But I will admit that my best Rapids with the 45 are only in the low 190's
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by mspingeld on 2/13/2017, 4:25 pm

Read this article. Will help you think of rapid fire differently.

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/advtopic1.html

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by jglenn21 on 2/13/2017, 6:43 pm

get the Bullseye Timer phone app and use the 1 and 2 shot drill options..

really helps getting the 1st and 2nd rounds off in a timely manner

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/13/2017, 7:36 pm

mspingeld wrote:Read this article. Will help you think of rapid fire differently.

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/advtopic1.html

I try to teach the shooters I coach to learn how to shoot 5 good shots with no time limit; they have to keep trigger continuously pulled, so not taking sweet time Smile
They will learn what a 10 looks like and feels like. Then we start on the method to breaking shots for tf & rf. Also have to learn time is your friend! 10 seconds is actually a long time when approached correctly.
Jon
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/13/2017, 8:05 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
mspingeld wrote:Read this article. Will help you think of rapid fire differently.

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/advtopic1.html

I try to teach the shooters I coach to learn how to shoot 5 good shots with no time limit; they have to keep trigger continuously pulled, so not taking sweet time Smile
They will learn what a 10 looks like and feels like. Then we start on the method to breaking shots for tf & rf. Also have to learn time is your friend! 10 seconds is actually a long time when approached correctly.
Jon
what about those who have a difficult time learning ?
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Wobbley on 2/13/2017, 9:25 pm

One thing to consider is 8 9s is 72.  Instead of reinforcing bad shooting shoot 4 good shots per string.  Eventually you'll start getting 5 shots off per string and you'll be in the 90s again.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by john bickar on 2/13/2017, 9:36 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Jon Eulette wrote:
mspingeld wrote:Read this article. Will help you think of rapid fire differently.

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/advtopic1.html

I try to teach the shooters I coach to learn how to shoot 5 good shots with no time limit; they have to keep trigger continuously pulled, so not taking sweet time Smile
They will learn what a 10 looks like and feels like. Then we start on the method to breaking shots for tf & rf. Also have to learn time is your friend! 10 seconds is actually a long time when approached correctly.
Jon
what about those who have a difficult time learning ?

It takes them 21 years to go from 2605 to 2660.
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Jack H on 2/13/2017, 10:42 pm

jmdavis wrote:Light or moderate loads and drive the gun back on the target. You don't wait for the recoil to bring the gun down, you bring it down. Or that's as near as I can understand it. But I will admit that my best Rapids with the 45 are only in the low 190's

Work on your hold.  When hold is good you do not have to "drive" the gun back.  It returns by itself and there is no break in concentration.
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Ed Hall on 2/14/2017, 11:03 am

bdas wrote:Thanks guys.  
...
So, I'm VERY interested in fixing my rapid fire shot process.  I'll try to digest what you've suggested, and try to focus on the shot process in rapid fire.  Any suggestions on a proper shot process specifically for rapid fire would be appreciated.
Something very important, and mentioned in the first article, is to keep in mind that you want the shot to fire when it reaches best alignment in the aiming area.  In order to achieve this, you must start the trigger on the way to alignment.  If you wait for alignment, this induces jerking to try to fire before that alignment gets away.  So work on what shooters call, "keeping the trigger moving,"  by starting the trigger on the way in.  If it fires early on the way to the center, it will still be better than yanking it out after you get there.  You will also find, with some training, that if you start the shot on the way in, your subconscious will take it the rest of the way when you get there, so you won't have to, "make it fire."

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by bdas on 2/14/2017, 12:20 pm

mspingeld... Thanks for the link to that Ed Hall article.  That's probably exactly what I need to start doing differently.

Wobbley... Essentially the same suggestion as in the article, but it's good to hear it from another point of view.  In a match last year, the guy who was scoring my targets, and thus saw what my problem was, suggested the same thing... that it's better to shoot 3 or 4 good shots in 10 seconds, than 5 crappy ones, and it wouldn't really hurt my scores.  I just haven't been able to concede that it's OK to only get 3 or 4 shots off in Rapid Fire, but that's obviously not working for me.  Time to change my mind.

jglenn... I have that app, and I've tried to use it that way before, but with mixed results.  But, combined with a change in mindset to focus on shooting good shots even if I run out of time before all 5 are off, that's probably an excellent suggestion for practicing the first shot or first two shots. 

Jon... when you say "they have to keep trigger continuously pulled" are you saying that they have to "keep the trigger moving", or do you mean something else?

Ed... when I've tried to "keep the trigger moving", I find that my shots get strung vertically from just above the black to outside the scoring rings on the bottom, sometimes even off the paper.  So I can only surmise that I'm doing it wrong.  On the other hand, I've found that applying some pressure to the trigger before the dot settles completely is helpful in slow and timed, and I'm sure it would be helpful in rapid as well, if I could build that into my shot process.  I think of it as pre-loading the trigger, in the same vein as adding pre-load to the suspension on a motorcycle (or car) to help settle/control the motion.

Thanks to all who have responded, I appreciate your time and consideration; this is what makes this forum great.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/14/2017, 1:08 pm

Trigger continually/constantly moving. Moving when lowering into target for first shot and trigger squeeze started immediately after resetting trigger while still in recoil/recovery. In otherwords deliberate trigger squeeze at all times! 
Jon
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Froneck on 2/25/2017, 3:09 pm

One thing the new shooter must do is to find the finger placement on the trigger that is ideal for them. Holding the gun on target is somewhat easy but pulling the trigger without moving the impact is not as easy as it seems. Lot of manuals by the top shooter are available but they all are talking about themselves and simply put you are not them! The fundamentals are correct but the shooter has to adapt those fundamentals to his body.
 Finger placement is one of those fundamentals that needs to be adapted. As everyone know I have been making trigger shoes and take requests to make them to what ever the shooter wants and why I offer free modification so as to allow the shooter to get the best results. Over time I have made shoes for some of the top shooters in the country (High Masters)  Simply put you don't need my shoe (all of those shooter made it to the top without using my shoe) but finding the ideal finger location is important. I was surprised to find how many of the top shooters use the first joint rather than the pad or tip of the finger though there are many like Adam that use the pad yet others that use the tip and finger looks like a hook when placed on the trigger.
  Since I do experiment with shoes and triggers I have often tried a shoe that was requested that was different than the one installed on my gun, in doing so I found better finger location for myself and then modified the shoe I was using. I'm not suggesting that anyone should get my shoe since as mentioned above those top shooters all made it to the top without using my shoe!
 Certainly a shooter should not try changing finger location at a match But at a match be mindful of how the trigger feels. Again using my shoe as an example I made one that felt good in practice but when shooting a match the pull weight seemed higher. Later changing the shoe which altered my finger placement reduced the perceived pull weight.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Rob9mmshooter on 3/6/2017, 6:18 am

I suspect that you are doing the same thing I was doing when I was shooting like that.  Basically I was NOT doing what Jon said "keep the trigger moving".  I was coming back close to center and then snatching the trigger and did not always realize I was doing it.  Had the same sensation that you did would feel like I shot a real good group.  Turned out they were good groups just jerked left and down.  Cured all that by doing what Jon said get on the trigger immediately and never stop pulling while steering back to the center.  Once you get the timing down it is almost like magic.  I actually did it by buying a Steyr LP50 and putting a 3.5 lb trigger in it.  That taught me that you have to keep the trigger moving even with a air pistol.  It is the trigger control that matters.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by Jack H on 3/6/2017, 9:46 am

I do not hear much on "minimum arc of movement" anymore.
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by bdas on 3/30/2017, 1:01 pm

I just wanted to follow up with some results.  Per the suggestions above, I've worked on my shot process for timed & rapid fire, specifically with regards to getting the first shot off soon after the targets turn, and starting pressure on the trigger while recovering from recoil.  I also practiced the start of that shot process in dry fire.  I also did the 2-shot drills with the Bullseye Timer app (but not as often as I would have liked).  But, perhaps most importantly, I changed my mindset, and tried to focus on shooting only good shots during rapid fire, even if that means only getting 4 shots off during the allotted time.  And, well, the results don't lie:

In a 2700 match (indoors, all at 25yds) last weekend I shot a 173-1x in centerfire rapid fire, and a 180-5x in 45 rapid fire (both with my 45), and an aggregate score of 2521.  I know those aren't great rapid fire scores, but it's a huge improvement for me.  In my previous match in Feb I shot 147-1x and 165-2x with an aggregate score of 2400.  And that 173-1x centerfire score from last weekend does indeed contain a string where I only got 4 rounds off in time, but still scored an 85 on that target.  And in one of the other rapid fire strings (during one of the NRA short courses, I think), my 5th shot was a skidder as time was expiring, but it was still an 8.

So, to all the folks who contributed their ideas and suggestions, I wanted to say THANK YOU!

And to anyone with similar issues (jerking/yanking the trigger during rapid fire), I suggest that you consider the advice in the posts above; it certainly helped me significantly.

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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by 12XNPC on 4/16/2017, 3:41 pm

Where to begin?

Lots of great comments written here and none of which I disagree with.

For the gentlemen who stated he needed to work on his rapid fire shot process....keep in mind that the first shots of all sustained fire strings are the exact same process as every single slow fire shot.

Develop the shot process in slow fire. This process is the same as for all three guns and all three stages of fire. 

All you need to do is determine where in the commands does one plug in the start of the shot process. If the grip and the body alignment are correct the gun will recoil back into the same position as it was when the previous shot was fired with little effort.

As your process develops and your training progresses to sustained fire you may find that your process has to be tweaked every so slightly. The important thing to remember is that those changes made need to be able to be carried back over to the slow fire process or you will end up with two separate processes. by keeping your slow fire process and the first shots of sustained fire the same you will find that you are able to be so much more consistent in your shooting.

I like to ask people if they have ever shot a 10 at 50 yards. Typically they say yes.
Well what is the difference between your 10 and say Zins's 10?
Nothing.....other than he shoots more 10's.

The point is Shooters in the high master class are more consistent in everything they do. From position to grip, to trigger squeeze.

Develop a process and work on being consistent in your grip and trigger squeeze and your position. That process will help you to become more consistent. Anyone can shoot a ten  Shooting many tens is the hard part and a lack of consistency will not help matters.

thanks for reading,
Brian Zins
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

Post by john bickar on 4/16/2017, 7:04 pm

12XNPC wrote:Join date : 2017-04-16

There goes the neighborhood Razz
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Re: Zins Precision Pistol Fundamentals

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