Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

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Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Stewswanson on 2/16/2017, 12:30 pm

First topic message reminder :

I (a shaky 75 year old) have to contend with a good amount of shakes that keep that dot moving. To counter this I have made a stabilizer that attaches to my grip and does not contact my hand or body. Aprox. 14 inches long with 5 ounces of lead at the end
it improves my score by aprox 10%. The team Captain says he thinks it is legal and my research did not find any rule prohibiting it.
So I am asking if it is legal. TIA
Stew



Last edited by Stewswanson on 2/17/2017, 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added photo)

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Magload on 2/20/2017, 8:41 am

I do believe that a gyro stabilizer attached to the mag would work better but then why not just use a Ransom rest and the person with the best ammo and gun wins.  That is not entirely true as the RR accuracy can be effected by the user.  Notice I said user not shooter.  That perfect maybe possible after all.   Don
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 2/20/2017, 9:09 am

I would have to ask where to draw the line to keep some of our shooters playing the game.
A lot of us are approaching a certain age where we start to decline and are no longer a threat to the hot shots ( I have the advantage of never being a threat & can relax on the line more).
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by CR10X on 2/20/2017, 9:58 am

As Arthur Monahan, DR#1, was reported to have said when he stopped shooting bullseye as much. "Just shoot NRA Action Pistol. They let you use two hands! It's easy!"

I really enjoyed shooting at Perry with him.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Slartybartfast on 2/20/2017, 10:33 am

Another approach, look into this sport for older pistol shooters:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx?mod=docf&pane=1&inst=290&file=ISSF_Rules_-_Supported_Rest_Shooting_-_Edition_2016.pdf

Personally I think the derision shown by some, even if tongue in cheek, is unwarranted.

I don't think that such things should be allowed in all competition. But there's no shame, I would say the opposite that's it's commendable, to either start or continue competing within ones skill and ability with others of similar skill and ability using similar equipment.

There's thread about "Supported Air Pistol" over on another forum.

There they mention the ISSF sport above and the USA Shooting junior program called "Progressive Position Air Pistol". 

They use a counter weight system so that there is no added stability provided by the rest. It only provides vertical lift to help with the weight of the pistol There is no reason why it couldn't be adapted to old timers:

Instructions for making the counterweight systems are here:

Original "Tee" stand: http://www.usashooting.org/library/Youth_Development/Z_PPP_Counterbalance_T_Stand.pdf

Improved "L" stand: http://www.usashooting.org/library/Youth_Development/PPP/PPP_L-stand_construction_plans_2.pdf
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Magload on 2/20/2017, 11:19 am

Slartybartfast wrote:Another approach, look into this sport for older pistol shooters:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx?mod=docf&pane=1&inst=290&file=ISSF_Rules_-_Supported_Rest_Shooting_-_Edition_2016.pdf

Personally I think the derision shown by some, even if tongue in cheek, is unwarranted.

I don't think that such things should be allowed in all competition. But there's no shame, I would say the opposite that's it's commendable, to either start or continue competing within ones skill and ability with others of similar skill and ability using similar equipment.

There's thread about "Supported Air Pistol" over on another forum.

There they mention the ISSF sport above and the USA Shooting junior program called "Progressive Position Air Pistol". 

They use a counter weight system so that there is no added stability provided by the rest. It only provides vertical lift to help with the weight of the pistol There is no reason why it couldn't be adapted to old timers:

Instructions for making the counterweight systems are here:

Original "Tee" stand: http://www.usashooting.org/library/Youth_Development/Z_PPP_Counterbalance_T_Stand.pdf

Improved "L" stand: http://www.usashooting.org/library/Youth_Development/PPP/PPP_L-stand_construction_plans_2.pdf
That is so cool I am into gadgets and am getting petty shaky as I get older.  I started shooting at the indoor range with a group of old guys that shoot their pistols off of a rest while sitting at the bench.  We either shoot for smallest groups or use the rifle targers that there is 10 targets and the 10 is just a dot.  Can't remember the   target number.  BTW I think most of us were just trying to add a little levity to the post.  Don
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by sixftunda on 2/20/2017, 11:30 am

There is a shooter in Ohio who has a barrel weight that extends 4-6" in front of the muzzle.  As far as I know he has used it at Nationals with no issues from range personnel.
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by MarkF45 on 2/25/2017, 5:44 pm

As a match director, I would be inclined to allow a 75 year old person to shoot using this thing. I've never turned away a shooter yet, and I hope I never do.

If everybody wanted to do this, that would be a different story. Then I'd want a ruling from the NRA.

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Waiting on a reply from the NRA

Post by Stewswanson on 2/25/2017, 6:48 pm

Emailed the NRA last week with a description and 4 photos.
Stew

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by davekp on 2/26/2017, 7:11 am

I understand the age thing, but I think the stabilizer as discussed violates the "spirit" of the rules. I'd rather see allowing older shooters to use 2 hands.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Magload on 2/26/2017, 9:31 am

davekp wrote:I understand the age thing, but I think the stabilizer as discussed violates the "spirit" of the rules. I'd rather see allowing older shooters to use 2 hands.
I am all for that two hands shake less then one for me.
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by davekp on 2/26/2017, 6:07 pm

Also, as a match director I couldn't allow the stabilizer as pictured unless the pistol was cased before shooters going downrange to score. The stabilizer shown would hang way off the back of the benches at my club and I would consider that a safety hazard.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Left handed troglodyte on 3/9/2017, 8:50 am

The first sentence of General 3.18 would rule it out under several aspects:

1. The stabilizer DOES faciltate the shooter.
2. The 'add-on' aspect is not expressly defined as a regular piece of equipment.
3. Spirit of the rules and regulations.

"General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate shooting and which are not mentioned in these rules, or which are contrary to the spirit of these rules and regulations, are forbidden."


Postscript; Have indeed seen and held the item in question - and was not permitted to be used by a local match.

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by farmboy on 3/9/2017, 5:24 pm

I would think it would be at risk of sticking far enough out past the edge the bench that someone could run into it. If so it could cause the turning of the muzzle some other direction other than downrange or pull the gun off the bench.
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Jon Math on 3/15/2017, 10:28 am

In Germany they have a type of shooting called supported.  It’s for seniors with three age brackets, the oldest group is allowed to shoot from a seated position if they like.  It is the fastest growing segment of sport shooting over there and because of its popularity several other countries are looking into it.  The support is basically a round tube that the butt of the pistol rests on.  It carries the weight of the pistol, but does not do much else IE your sight picture, trigger control release, and breathing etc. all are by and large unchanged.  Naturally these shooters are scored against each other.

I’m not sure it will ever be a US thing, but to my mind anything that gets and keeps people shooting is not all bad.
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by LenV on 3/21/2017, 11:48 pm

Jon Math wrote:In Germany they have a type of shooting called supported.  It’s for seniors with three age brackets, the oldest group is allowed to shoot from a seated position if they like.  It is the fastest growing segment of sport shooting over there and because of its popularity several other countries are looking into it.  The support is basically a round tube that the butt of the pistol rests on.  It carries the weight of the pistol, but does not do much else IE your sight picture, trigger control release, and breathing etc. all are by and large unchanged.  Naturally these shooters are scored against each other.

I’m not sure it will ever be a US thing, but to my mind anything that gets and keeps people shooting is not all bad.
My mom was German. Maybe that explains why shooting supported sounds good as I get older. I would not need a tube though. Just a little support from the brass catcher is fine. Very Happy

Stew; Did NRA ever get back to you?

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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

Post by Jon Math on 3/22/2017, 6:05 am

LOL That's the ticket!
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Re: Are stabilizers legal for BE competition

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