NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

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NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by Tim:H11 on 2/20/2017, 9:16 pm

Some of you know I shoot muzzleloader pistols competitively and it's very much a sister sport to NRA Precision pistol. I've been asked to share pictures of my black powder pistols before and I can't remember if I did or not. I don't mean to take away from Bullseye - thats what this forum is all about. But I notice some talk about air pistol too so I didn't think sharing these here would be too out bounds. 

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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by dronning on 2/20/2017, 10:08 pm

I'd say follow through with the flint is pretty important!  Awesome looking pistols, not at all what I had envisioned.

- Dave
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by Tim:H11 on 2/21/2017, 5:15 am

dronning wrote:I'd say follow through with the flint is pretty important!  Awesome looking pistols, not at all what I had envisioned.

- Dave

The revolver is actually the meanest to learn.
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by Jack H on 2/21/2017, 5:18 am

I have the revolver too.  Don't shoot it much.
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by SteveBrown on 2/21/2017, 5:32 am

The flintlock looks very interesting. Old meets new in a beautiful way!

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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by willnewton on 2/21/2017, 7:42 am

Wow, the bottom one looks like my Hammerli's great-grandfather.  Smile

What models are they?  What calibers?  I have never seen anything like those.

What kind of accuracy do you get?

What is the course of fire for a match?

Thanks for showing those pics, I am totally unfamiliar with muzzleloaders as "target" guns.
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by Tim:H11 on 2/21/2017, 8:55 am

Y
willnewton wrote:Wow, the bottom one looks like my Hammerli's great-grandfather.  Smile

What models are they?  What calibers?  I have never seen anything like those.

What kind of accuracy do you get?

What is the course of fire for a match?

Thanks for showing those pics, I am totally unfamiliar with muzzleloaders as "target" guns.

First - they don't really have "model diesignations". It's such a limited sport in terms popularity and attendance / participation these days that most - if not all - the guns are custom builds by individuals. And since a muzzleloader is not "legally" a firearm - or modern firearm - there are no FFL's needed for transfers, and no license or permit for manufacture. 

The one on top is a replica of a Remington 1858 New Model Army percussion revolver in .44 caliber actually firing a .454 ball. It was a "target" model that came with an adjustable rear sight and front target sight. The sights however were garbage - front being too short, and the rear replaced with one off a Ruger Blackhawk. Trigger job (2#) trigger stop, and grip modifications added. I hold the revolver Limited Timed Fire record with this gun at 100-7X.

The middle is a single shot percussion or cap lock. It was made by Harold Yazel of Indiana. He no longer builds guns. He's 90+ years old I think now. It was a part time business. He made a matching flint model to go with these cap locks. The frame and many parts are castings. Mine is a .36 cal shooting a .350 ball and .018" patch. 

The flint lock was built by Chris Hageman who I believe was a cylinder and slide gun smith until a brutal motorcycle accident. He survived but with permanent injurys. Not much else I know about him. He did however build probably the best flint pistol I've ever shot. It's a back wards action in .32 shooting a .319 ball and .012" patch. 


These guns are just as accurate as our modern bullseye pistols today but are VERY sensitive to grip and trigger control. They do not favor a hard hold. 

A national championship match is a 1000 point match. 10 targets, 10 shots per target, and we use the same 25 and 50 yard pistol targets Bullseye uses. 300 points with the cap and flint and 400 points with the revolver. 

25 yard SF 10 shots 30 minutes. 
25 yard Limited Timed Fire - 10 shot target, two 5 shot strings, 5 minutes per string, time starts at report of first shot per string. Target must be completed in a 30 minute relay. 
50 yard slow fire. 10 shots 30 minutes. 

Flint is the same but 6 minutes per string on 25 yd LTF. 

Revolver has a 25 and 50 yard SF but it's LTF is 10 minutes from the report of your first shot to fire the remaining four in the gun, reload 5 more and shoot them. The fourth target in the revolver agg is an international target at 25 yards. Best 10 of 13 shots in 30 minutes.


Last edited by Tim:H11 on 2/21/2017, 9:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by SNaymola on 2/21/2017, 8:58 am

On the flintlock, it is interesting that the hammer falls toward the shooter instead of the target. I guess that keeps the barrel from dipping when you let the trigger fly.

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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by Jon Eulette on 2/21/2017, 9:22 am

SNaymola wrote:On the flintlock, it is interesting that the hammer falls toward the shooter instead of the target. I guess that keeps the barrel from dipping when you let the trigger fly.
Flintlock hammer is in reverse position because its a pistol: allows breech to be further back so pistol doesn't become too muzzle heavy.
Jon
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by Tim:H11 on 2/21/2017, 11:44 am

Jon Eulette wrote:
SNaymola wrote:On the flintlock, it is interesting that the hammer falls toward the shooter instead of the target. I guess that keeps the barrel from dipping when you let the trigger fly.
Flintlock hammer is in reverse position because its a pistol: allows breech to be further back so pistol doesn't become too muzzle heavy.
Jon

Actually you both would be correct. If the lock was on the right side of the pistol then the lock would have to be further forward of the shooters hand and grip because the sear bar is in the rear of the lock and is tripped by the the trigger. So balance would not be as nice. A shorter barrel would be needed and thus a shorter sight radius. However you can have longer barrels that are half round or tapered to solve the balance issue. 

But with a heavy hammer spring the flint slams into the frizzen at such a rate that with poor follow through - yes, the muzzle takes a dive during the shot. You can tune the hammer and frizzen spring to makes things less violent but follow through is critical with a flint regardless. 

Now with the lock on the left side of the pistol, the sear bar being in the back of the lock allows the lock now to be positioned directly over the shooters hand and grip. The touch hole is now needed further rearward, the breach too, and you can have a longer barrel with the appearance and balance of a short one. Sight radius still suffers but with these guns there is naturally a ton of sight radius that we don't normally get on modern pistols. So the effect is little. 

And, when the flint comes down striking the frizzen - that motion is directed towards the grip and hand making the gun easier to control. Less follow through would be incorrect to assume. Follow through is still critical because a flint pistol for what ever reason including wether could ignite slow on any shot. A hang fire even. If tuned and maintained a flinter is just as fast or faster than a percussion Pistol but they are finicky nonetheless. 

This design idea makes the gun more comfortable in the hand, and somewhat easier to control sight alignment and sight picture through out the shot.  But do not mistake it for not needing to follow through as much. It is always needed. Follow through in these guns takes you to the top. The shooter must follow through from the beginning of the shot to the end. 

My mentor drilled this into my memory:

Q: What is your job? 
A: To shoot tens.
Q: How do you do it? 
A: Maintain correct sight picture until the bullet is out the end of the barrel.
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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

Post by troystaten on 2/22/2017, 10:34 pm

Boy one more rabbit hole to go down:)  Thanks for showing us these really neat pistols.

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Re: NMLRA Pistol - Sister Sport to Bullseye

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