Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

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Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Gary Wells on 2/22/2017, 6:46 pm

My apologies to Magload & everybody for disrupting his thread.
About 3 or 4 yrs ago I bought 500 rds of Federal Gold Medal Match .45 auto a85 gr SWC. After shooting the 500 rounds, & doing some re-arranging here's what I came up with: 9 boxes of 450 cases total that measured weight-wise 82.5-83.5 grs. 1 gr total variation. About 3 boxes came out perfect that way, & the balance contained a few outliers that I re-arranged to "junk box 10" so I could have 450 cases between 82.5-83.5 grs & a total variation of 1 gr.

     

Federal, brass, Gold medal match, once fired, cleaned & de-primed, ready for loading:
Box # 1, 08-08-15: page 9
 
Column--------1---------------2----------------3---------------4----------------5------------
Row:
01) ----------082.6----------082.7----------082.9----------083.3----------083.0-----------
02) ----------083.2----------083.0----------082.9----------083.4----------083.2-----------
03) ----------083.2----------083.0----------083.5----------082.8----------083.0-----------
04) ----------082.5----------083.0----------083.3----------082.7----------082.7-----------
05) ----------083.0----------083.3----------083.1----------082.6----------083.4-----------
06) ----------082.8----------082.9----------082.7----------082.9----------082.9-----------
07) ----------082.6----------083.0----------083.4----------082.9----------082.7-----------
08) ----------083.1----------083.2----------083.0----------083.1----------082.6-----------
09) ----------083.3----------083.4----------082.9----------083.1----------082.8-----------
10) ----------082.7----------083.1----------082.7----------083.0----------083.2-----------  
 
Total: -------829.0----------830.6----------830.4----------829.8----------829.5------------4149.3/5=   829.86
Average: ---82.90----------83.06----------83.04----------82.98----------82.95------------414.93/5=   82.986
Highest: ----83.30----------83.40----------83.50----------83.40----------83.40------------417.00/5=   83.400
Lowest:. ----82.50----------82.70----------82.70----------82.60----------82.60------------413.10/5=   82.620
Differ: --------0.8--------------0.7-------------0.8-------------0.8--------------0.8-----------------3.9/5=       0.78
1.0 Total Dispersion:  (82.5-83.5)
 
081.9: ()
082.0: ()
082.2: ()
082.4: ()
082.5: (1) X--------------------------------------------
082.6: (4) XXXX
082.7: (7) XXXXXXX
082.8: (3) XXX
082.9: (7) XXXXXXX
083.0: (9) XXXXXXXXX
083.1: (5) XXXXX
083.2: (5) XXXXX
083.3: (4) XXXX                    
083.4: (4) XXXX
083.5: (1) X--------------------------------------------
083.6: ()
083.7: ()
083.8: ()
083.9: ()
084.0: ()
084.1: ()
084.2: ()
084.3: ()
084.4: ()


OK, hered's where I hid all the "junk" cases:



Federal, brass, Gold medal match, once fired, cleaned & de-primed, mostly outliers:
Box # 10, 08-16-15: Page 21
Column--------1---------------2----------------3---------------4----------------5------------
01) ----------081.6----------082.2----------083.3----------082.8----------083.7-----------
02) ----------083.0----------083.0----------083.7----------083.6----------084.0-----------
03) ----------083.5----------081.8----------083.4----------082.8----------083.6-----------
04) ----------083.6----------082.4----------081.8----------083.6----------082.5-----------
05) ----------082.5----------084.2----------082.5----------082.3----------084.0-----------
06) ----------082.4----------083.6----------083.8----------082.2----------083.8-----------
07) ----------083.7----------082.4----------082.5----------082.0----------082.3-----------
08) ----------081.8----------081.8----------084.2----------081.7----------083.8-----------
09) ----------081.5----------082.4----------083.8----------083.7----------090.5-----------
10) ----------082.0----------083.6----------082.5----------081.7----------090.9-----------  
 
Total: -------825.6----------827.4----------831.5----------826.4----------849.1------------4148.5/5=     829.70
Average: ---82.90----------83.10----------82.92----------83.04----------82.89------------414.85/5=      82.970
Highest: ----83.2------------83.4-----------83.2------------83.5------------83.5--------------416.80/5=      83.36
Lowest:. ----82.5------------82.8-----------82.7------------82.7------------82.5--------------413.20/5=      82.64
Differ: ------0.7--------------0.6-------------0.5--------------0.8-------------1.0----------------3.6/5=              0.72
total dispersion:  (-)
 
081.5: (1) X
081.6: (1) X
081.7: (2) XX
081.8: (4) XXXX
081.9: ()
082.0: (2) XX                                                               
082.1: ()
082.2: (2) XX
082.3: (2) XX
082.4: (4) XXXX
082.5: (5) XXXXX---------------------------------
082.6: ()
082.7: ()                                                                                                                                                                                 
082.8: (2) XX
082.9: ()
083.0: (2) XX
083.1: ()
083.2: ()
083.3: (1) X                    
083.4: (1) X
083.5: (1) X---------------------------------
083.6: (6) XXXXXX
083.7: (4) XXXX
083.8: (4) XXXX
083.9: ()
084.0: (2) XX
084.1: ()
084.2: (2)


Last edited by Gary Wells on 2/22/2017, 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/22/2017, 6:54 pm

i would be more worried about wall thickness and uniformity over weight.  That is just me though.
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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Gary Wells on 2/22/2017, 7:07 pm

Chris: It would be very time consuming to do mechanical measurements to verify that.
I have weighed cases from other mnfrs & none come anywhere this close to
consistency.
Are all Federal cases made to this consistency, or only their match cases.
How many bulls-eye shooters use Federal cases?
How many use their "match" cases?

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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Jack H on 2/22/2017, 7:17 pm

And how do you suspect the different weights contribute to any degree of accuracy?
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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/22/2017, 7:43 pm

Gary Wells wrote:Chris: It would be very time consuming to do mechanical measurements to verify that.
I have weighed cases from other mnfrs & none come anywhere this close to
consistency.
Are all Federal cases made to this consistency, or only their match cases.
How many bulls-eye shooters use Federal cases?
How many use their "match" cases?
 
I've seen x ring groups with factory ammo, hand loads w/ starline, winchester, federal , and with cases that have been fired many times before.... all the ones i've seen were jhp loads. 

I'm sure consistent brass is a factor in repeatable groups, but so is bullet weight/length, uniformity, powder charge, brass length, and crimp. At what point are you spending more time then needed.

This year I plan to load my 50 yard ammo w/ weighed, length sorted new starline cases, weighed bullets, and trickled powder drops w/ my fancy new Sartorius scale. Then i will sort ammo by length and uniform bullets... I only plan to shoot this ammo for testing and then Perry @ 50 yards.
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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Gary Wells on 2/22/2017, 8:14 pm

Jack H wrote:And how do you suspect the different weights contribute to any degree of accuracy?
I'm not sure that I do, yet, Sir.
And I doubt that it could be measured either.
But I think that maybe the cases weighing within 1 gr total variation could lead to consistency in pressure.

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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Gary Wells on 2/22/2017, 8:30 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Gary Wells wrote:Chris: It would be very time consuming to do mechanical measurements to verify that.
I have weighed cases from other mnfrs & none come anywhere this close to
consistency.
Are all Federal cases made to this consistency, or only their match cases.
How many bulls-eye shooters use Federal cases?
How many use their "match" cases?
 
I've seen x ring groups with factory ammo, hand loads w/ starline, winchester, federal , and with cases that have been fired many times before.... all the ones i've seen were jhp loads. 

I'm sure consistent brass is a factor in repeatable groups, but so is bullet weight/length, uniformity, powder charge, brass length, and crimp. At what point are you spending more time then needed.

This year I plan to load my 50 yard ammo w/ weighed, length sorted new starline cases, weighed bullets, and trickled powder drops w/ my fancy new Sartorius scale. Then i will sort ammo by length and uniform bullets... I only plan to shoot this ammo for testing and then Perry @ 50 yards.

Chris: You're making me feel bad, Sir. I am 73 going blind with glaucoma, cataracts, and would have trouble shooting a group at 21 ft that you guys shoot regulary at 50 yds.

The last 8 months I have been recovering from a loss of 3 toes and a major portion of my left foot. So I have spent somde of my recovery time getting a grip on the "thumbs forward" grip as compared to the old "non gun hand index finger on the trigger guard.
Well, playing with weights of completed rounds, factory and handloads, cases. & bullets too. I do believe that consistency of any metric is an attempt at improvement of accuracy. And the thought of whether Federal controls only their match ammo cases of all of their cases. And FWIW, Federal's loaded match ammo is extremely consistent & tightly controlled in weight also. It's what happens when one gets old & can't shoot like you gentlemen.

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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by Chris Miceli on 2/22/2017, 8:33 pm

Gary Wells wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
Gary Wells wrote:Chris: It would be very time consuming to do mechanical measurements to verify that.
I have weighed cases from other mnfrs & none come anywhere this close to
consistency.
Are all Federal cases made to this consistency, or only their match cases.
How many bulls-eye shooters use Federal cases?
How many use their "match" cases?
 
I've seen x ring groups with factory ammo, hand loads w/ starline, winchester, federal , and with cases that have been fired many times before.... all the ones i've seen were jhp loads. 

I'm sure consistent brass is a factor in repeatable groups, but so is bullet weight/length, uniformity, powder charge, brass length, and crimp. At what point are you spending more time then needed.

This year I plan to load my 50 yard ammo w/ weighed, length sorted new starline cases, weighed bullets, and trickled powder drops w/ my fancy new Sartorius scale. Then i will sort ammo by length and uniform bullets... I only plan to shoot this ammo for testing and then Perry @ 50 yards.

Chris: You're making me feel bad, Sir. I am 73 going blind with glaucoma, cataracts, and would have trouble shooting a group at 21 ft that you guys shoot regulary at 50 yds.

The last 8 months I have been recovering from a loss of 3 toes and a major portion of my left foot. So I have spent somde of my recovery time getting a grip on the "thumbs forward" grip as compared to the old "non gun hand index finger on the trigger guard.
Well, playing with weights of completed rounds, factory and handloads, cases. & bullets too. I do believe that consistency of any metric is an attempt at improvement of accuracy. And the thought of whether Federal controls only their match ammo cases of all of their cases. And FWIW, Federal's loaded match ammo is extremely consistent & tightly controlled in weight also. It's what happens when one gets old & can't shoot like you gentlemen.
i have an unopened box of starline, i'll give 500 a weight check this weekend.
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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by dronning on 2/22/2017, 9:44 pm

Gary Wells wrote:
Jack H wrote:And how do you suspect the different weights contribute to any degree of accuracy?
I'm not sure that I do, yet, Sir.
And I doubt that it could be measured either.
But I think that maybe the cases weighing within 1 gr total variation could lead to consistency in pressure.

IMHO
But..think... could...., case volume after sizing will give you the best indication of "potential" pressure variance. Case weight doesn't tell you where it is and it will make a difference.  Crimp, bullet variation, the way the powder lays in the case at ignition will all give you variance, so would primer consistency.  How much and what effect-??  You could spend 100's of hours chasing variation(s). 

The only way I'd put that much time into what you are doing, is if I had a barrel tester for group comparison and I'd shoot the worst variation against the least.  With at least 10 10 round groups of each.  Why a barrel tester - it takes more variables out of the equation.  With barrel testing you could also use a PressureTrace II to check actual chamber pressure.

After all that, I and many others have shot 1 1/2 groups from a Ransom Rest with Federal once fired brass - not match brass.  Time to go dry fire now.

- Dave
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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by r_zerr on 2/22/2017, 10:53 pm

Weighing brass has no measurable meaning.  There is easily a few thousands variation in the extractor groove cut which is a major contributor to the weight variation. Measured via rifle accuracy, it shows no variation between selected cases (less than .5 gr total variation) versus random weights (approximately 5 grains weight variation), with a rifle producing 1/4-3/8 moa groups. 

I highly recommend people interested in these kinds of measurements read old Creighton Audette articles if you can find them. He has many treasures that people keep rediscovering/reinventing, or re-proving.....and some of them may even be older than his writings, although I have not found anything similar.  Audette was a great experimenter.

My rifle experience proved his measurements on case wall variations measured at the case web are very key to accuracy and this has been one of the few measurements that concern me.  These experiments were in rifle actions with a more positive lock-up that is not characteristic of our bullseye pistols. 

Was this done on a cold winter day? Even so, Dave suggested the positive aspects of dry firing. :-)

-Ron

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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by tenx9 on 3/19/2017, 9:36 pm

A year ago I was having problems with a Dillon powder measure throwing very different charges. After a couple of stuck bullets I decided to pull some heads. Well charges were way off. After loading 500 rounds or so, I realized how many heads I have to pull. So I started weighing loading rounds to save time. Well, that was a disaster after I realized that loaded ammo greatly differs and that doesn't mean a thing. I ended up pulling everything and started over from scratch. Dillon replaced the measure, no problem. Great people

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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

Post by BE Mike on 3/20/2017, 9:29 am

If your trying to improve your scores, you need to take a different path.
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Re: Federal .45 auto 185 gr GM Match cases:

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