Possible Ultradot problem

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Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Lightfoot on 2/27/2017, 11:35 am

I wanted to see if anyone has experienced similar problems with an Ultradot.  

Yesterday on my frame mount Matchdot II on my center fire course slow fire went ok then on timed fire I shot a 5 shot 1 1/2" tight group centered on the 9/8 ring at 3:00.  I moved the sight and checked that it was tight in the rings, but not enough.  Still grouped to the right.  Again next string I had to move it even more.  I finally got it centered.

Then next course of fire was slow fire 45 and I shot 2 perfect 10's ( in my mind)  but I scoped them to be sure and darn it, 3:00 almost touching on the outer 5 ring edge.  Adjusted and next shot was off the paper!  I eventually twisted it 30 or more clicks left and got it centered.  It remained on target the rest of the match.  That target scored a 59!  I usually shoot between 87-90.  The next 2 targets were better 89, then a 82 (a couple of 6's low for some reason, but it could have been me frustrated)

I may have corrected the wrong direction, it can happen, but I can't explain why it centered in the previous tf/rf matches then shot 5 ring on the next slow fire.  Maybe I mentally corrected the sight picture or parallaxed the dot and "corrected" my incorrect sight adjustments?  Anything is possible.  But I am really thinking that the scope is not right.  I just can't see how I could compensate at the short line to center, while the gun was hitting the edge of the 5 ring.

Anyone else have similar experiences?  I'll call Ultradot eventually, just wanted to ask here first.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Al on 2/27/2017, 11:47 am

Not saying this is it, but a similar thing happened to me with a 1" UD in 2002. Luckily it was at Camp Perry & Larry's guns serviced it immediately (replaced the tension spring).  It was a slide mount, and at that point had about 20,000 rounds on it. 

Still using it today, BTW.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Magload on 2/27/2017, 1:29 pm

Have you checked that the scope is perfectly vertical mounted on the gun?  I adjust mine with a level across the top of the elevation cap and another on the scope mount.  Unlike a scope with cross hairs it is hard to tell with a dot just by looking.  Is it possible you might have been canting the pistol some which would change the horizontal POI?  I use a level mounted on the Matchdot IIs I have.  Shooting benchrest pistol for tight groups I could see the effects if I didn't center the bubble.  Don
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Lightfoot on 2/27/2017, 3:35 pm

I called UD and they said to push the scope forward until the ring hits the front of the housing.  They'd like both rings touching, but that won't happen on my base.  Only two slots cut for rings.  Not sure what this will accomplish, but I'll try it.


Last edited by Lightfoot on 2/27/2017, 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo)
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by daflorc on 2/27/2017, 9:57 pm

Lightfoot wrote:I called UD and they said to push the scope forward until the ring hits the front of the housing.  They'd like both rings touching, but that won't happen on my base.  Only two slots cut for rings.  Not sure what this will accomplish, but I'll try it.
They're thinking that the recoil is sliding the scope between the rings changing your point of impact, and securing the scope so that the front ring hits it will prevent that. I just put a little piece of electrical tape on the inside of my scope rings before tightening them on the scope. Also, if you're shooting full power rounds, that'll do it, too. Only light reloads with a wadcutter.

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Ed Hall on 2/27/2017, 10:51 pm

Make sure all the lenses are secure.  If the reflecting lens is loose, the dot can move all over.  If you shake it vigorously, you should be able to hear a loose lens rattle.  I suppose there is a minor chance the diode is loose, but that is extremely rare.  If it is, maybe you can look in through the front lens and see it move as you tap it.  In all cases, either have the scope off the gun or at least the slide off the frame and the barrel removed.

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Froneck on 2/28/2017, 7:58 am

I don't think that canting will cause the problems as listed. Nor do I think that the scope not really tight in the rings will either. Unfortunately UD supplies the rings that are split in half vertically. So a loose scope in the base will cause the problems. I got rings from Midway that are the same as used on the Aimpoint 9000SC. They are exactly the same as those that came with my 9000. Mine were on sale at the time for $22 and free shipping on orders over $25 so I got 2 sets, liked them so ordered 2 more sets. They use 4 screws to attach the top half of the ring to the lower part and the typical Allen type cap screw to clamp to the base. The head of the cap screw would have been better if it was a larger diameter but it works OK and hold a 30mm scope well on the base. Plus it fits the weaver base perfectly, the UD rings don't!
 I did tightend the 4 screws on the rings well but the scope still moved forward. However impact did not change at 50 yards. If it did it was too small to notice. Being that I have changed scopes a few times the one I'm using when placed where I like it was not tight against the rings allowing the scope to move forward. I'm sure I could have put Loctite on the rings but didn't want to, plus there is a small gap on both sides of the rings indicating the rings can close more but the screws were very tight. I took a piece of Black Acetal (Delrin will work too) and machined a tube to slide on the scope long enough to fill the gap between the turret and front ring, now my scope does not slide forward! I could have made another but didn't, my thoughts are that if the scope will slide in the rings from recoil yet can't be moved by hand it will move to compensate for the difference in expansion between steel and aluminum.
 AMU is having similar problem with the 9000, for some reason impact changes. For example at Perry Adam shot well with a 9000 mounted on a 1911 in all the matches leading up to the 45 match. First shot at 50 yards on 45 day was a 6 o'clock 6, thinking he did something wrong he shot again, another 6 o'clock 6 almost touching the other one. Adjusted the scope and it shot well for the rest of the match! However it's not only Adam the other members are having the same problem. I'm wondering if thermal expansion has something to do with it!

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Bigtrout on 2/28/2017, 8:27 am

Not a Matchdot but I've got a Udot HD Micro 28mm and had a similar experience.  When a friend and I boresighted it when new, the dot did not move in windage after a few clicks.  We decided to do a half turn in each direction and then the dot moved with each click.  I should have sent it back then but was in a yank to use it.  Over a year I kept having to re-zero and the windage knob developed a little slop in each direction as though something had loosened.
 When doing chamber characterization tests on my 986 the windage adjustment acted like each click was 2 or 3 MOA rather than the specified 1 MOA.  Then when rechecking the movement on my friend's boresight, 2 or 3 clicks left the dot stationary and the next click caused the dot to "jump" to where it was supposed to be after 4 clicks.  Ultradot now has the sight in their repair shop and I'm waiting for an answer to the problem.

I don't know if the Matchdot has the same adjustment mechanism so I thought I'd pass this along.  When it stays zeroed the sight is a joy to use. The zero shift is random and unpredictable.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Lightfoot on 2/28/2017, 8:32 am

Froneck, I had that idea yesterday- the spacer idea.  But I haven't looked into it yet.  I moved the scope rearward because forward would put the ring on the glass lens.  It did not change zero by more than a click or two.  Certainly not enough to hit a 5 or 6 ring.  I shot 50-75 rounds yesterday without movement, but my confidence is shaken.  I'll probably scope shots more in matches now.  (which I've been advised by a master not to do normally).  I'm not to the point of being able to call every shot, but I know a 10 from a 5!

Ed,  I'll give her a shake later today.  Maybe that will reveal the problem.  I'd expect a random result to a loose lens though.

Thanks fellas!
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Lightfoot on 2/28/2017, 8:36 am

Bigtrout wrote:Not a Matchdot but I've got a Udot HD Micro 28mm and had a similar experience.  When a friend and I boresighted it when new, the dot did not move in windage after a few clicks.  We decided to do a half turn in each direction and then the dot moved with each click.  I should have sent it back then but was in a yank to use it.  Over a year I kept having to re-zero and the windage knob developed a little slop in each direction as though something had loosened.
 When doing chamber characterization tests on my 986 the windage adjustment acted like each click was 2 or 3 MOA rather than the specified 1 MOA.  Then when rechecking the movement on my friend's boresight, 2 or 3 clicks left the dot stationary and the next click caused the dot to "jump" to where it was supposed to be after 4 clicks.  Ultradot now has the sight in their repair shop and I'm waiting for an answer to the problem.

I don't know if the Matchdot has the same adjustment mechanism so I thought I'd pass this along.  When it stays zeroed the sight is a joy to use. The zero shift is random and unpredictable.
That could explain it.  I had a guy on a jobsite overhear my conversation with Ultradot, and when I hung up, he asked what I was shooting.  He's a rifle guy, and commented that he has seen this problem too.  Move a few clicks and nothing.  A few more, and then it moves catching up with the total of adjustment.  I wonder how long it will take to return and get it back if I send it in?
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Bigtrout on 2/28/2017, 8:53 am

Lightfoot, I sent it in via USPS to Florida Jan.30 for $4.  You need a proof of purchase and a $12.95 payment for the handling and return shipping.  The sight is supposed to be evaluated by their techs this week.  not the fastest service in the world.  You can email them at ultradotservice@gmail.com.  Good luck.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Magload on 2/28/2017, 9:08 am

I read some where that when adjusting a setting one should only approch that setting from one direction.  I can't remember if it was clockwise or counter clockwise.  This would mean thaat if you wanted 3 clicks you would maybe go 10 clicks then back down 7.  I can't remember where I read this but need to find it.  I love my Matchdot IIs and have 3 of them all on BE guns but am starting to have problems with both elevation and windage turrets.  It is very hard to feel the windage clicks on all of them and the elevation slips sometimes when turning like the screw on top was loose which it is not.  With it set at zero at 50yd I need to move 5 clicks for 25yds.  When I turn it and it just slips I and then lost. I slip it back to zero and press down on the turret move 5 clicks and hope for the best.  Don
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Froneck on 2/28/2017, 10:42 am

Adjustment screws are like all other screws there is clearance so that the screw can turn. Better screws are available but I doubt they are used in the scopes but ALL have clearance. To remove backlash in machines like milling machines, travel is always in one direction. When having to move in the opposite direction going past the point then backing up to it is done if possible. Being that the scope has a spring it's best to turn the screw toward the spring, if requiring movement in the other direction then over turn past the point then return to the desired setting. Even machines with very accurate ground screws such as the Jig Borers I have capable of locating to 1/1000 of an inch has back lash, further more as per manufactures instruction movement in only one direction is recommended. Clockwise turning of the hand wheel only to desired location.
 Vibration from shooting will remove the backlash so moving of impact after a few shots were fired is not due to backlash. Possibly a bad spring as mentioned. I had one brand of Red Dot that used a rubber spacer instead of a spring. After some time the rubber deteriorated and impact moved around.
 The odd thing is a high end scope like the 9000 shooting great for a few matches then for some unknown reason impact changes, continues to shoot good after adjustments are made then some time later changes again. Being those guys are some the best there are shooter error has to be ignored. Ammo is tested and checked, lots are tested and ammo lots are assigned to each gun so ammo problems have to be eliminated. The change is random if there was a ammo issue then everyone using that lot will have the problem at the same time.

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by John Dervis on 2/28/2017, 8:44 pm

A few years ago I had a squirrelly problem like this but my gun has a slide mounted dot.  I would shoot and hit way off.  I would adjust and still be off.  I would adjust again and be off in a different direction.  Scope was tight in the rings and everything else seems good.  Finally the scope base on the slide loosened up enough that I could feel the slop.  What had been happening was the base was moving at a shot but was tight enough not to notice.  It would move again with the next shot but again be tight when I checked it.  Kind of crazy but true.  Turns out the scope base had never been loctited when it was built but this took years to manifest itself.  Once it was put back on with loctite it's been fine for ever since.  
I don't know if this could happen with your frame mount but anything is worth a look.
Good luck.
John

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Lightfoot on 3/1/2017, 8:23 am

John Dervis wrote:A few years ago I had a squirrelly problem like this but my gun has a slide mounted dot.  I would shoot and hit way off.  I would adjust and still be off.  I would adjust again and be off in a different direction.  Scope was tight in the rings and everything else seems good.  Finally the scope base on the slide loosened up enough that I could feel the slop.  What had been happening was the base was moving at a shot but was tight enough not to notice.  It would move again with the next shot but again be tight when I checked it.  Kind of crazy but true.  Turns out the scope base had never been loctited when it was built but this took years to manifest itself.  Once it was put back on with loctite it's been fine for ever since.  
I don't know if this could happen with your frame mount but anything is worth a look.
Good luck.
John

I'm all too aware of that problem too.  Last summer, I told my 17 year old son that if he could out shoot me with my 22, I'd buy him a Range Officer.  Well we shot a NMC and mine were terrible.  The worst I've ever shot.  He beat me solidly on all 3 stages.  I swallowed my pride and we walked out of the range into the gun store and bought the R/O.  The next day I picked up my 22 and the scope moved.  It was loose and in his hand it held closer to the bullseye than in mine.  I let him know that he didn't beat me but could keep the prize.  He insists that he did win because we shot the same gun.  If he ever starts practicing, it won't be long until he beats me fair and square though.  I'm not making any more bets with him to say the least.

On topic, the mount is held with 10 screws to the frame.  It is super tight.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Ghillieman on 3/2/2017, 1:37 am

Steve, regarding your op, I had the exact same thing happen at the 2016 State match in Austin, all the screws had backed out on my frame mount. Once I caught it, tightened them down and rezeroed, it was fixed.

Another possible issue is the spring that puts tension opposite to the adjustments could be weakening. You see it with scopes. After you make an adjustment give the sight a few taps to set it.

Make sure to bring a back-up gun to Perry!
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Bigtrout on 3/2/2017, 8:46 am

Bigtrout wrote:Not a Matchdot but I've got a Udot HD Micro 28mm and had a similar experience.  When a friend and I boresighted it when new, the dot did not move in windage after a few clicks.  We decided to do a half turn in each direction and then the dot moved with each click.  I should have sent it back then but was in a yank to use it.  Over a year I kept having to re-zero and the windage knob developed a little slop in each direction as though something had loosened.
 When doing chamber characterization tests on my 986 the windage adjustment acted like each click was 2 or 3 MOA rather than the specified 1 MOA.  Then when rechecking the movement on my friend's boresight, 2 or 3 clicks left the dot stationary and the next click caused the dot to "jump" to where it was supposed to be after 4 clicks.  Ultradot now has the sight in their repair shop and I'm waiting for an answer to the problem.

I don't know if the Matchdot has the same adjustment mechanism so I thought I'd pass this along.  When it stays zeroed the sight is a joy to use. The zero shift is random and unpredictable.
I've gotten an email from Udot saying, "the techs put your sight through the ringer and were not happy!".  They will be "sending me a new HD Micro today".  Their 30 day turnaround claim was nearly exact and their findings support my suspicions.  Good news for Lightfoot.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Froneck on 3/2/2017, 9:44 am

I have an older Tasco Pistol scope that is built well though heavy, long and bulky but very accurate. I have a set of rings on it that are the same as the spacing on my t BE pistols. I try to keep the spacing the same but sometimes that's not possible.
 When ever I'm having issues that I can't determine what's causing it I mount the Tasco. Even if I must loosen the rings to fit those gun that I was forced to alter the spacing. Don't care if it's sighted in. Usually if I don't have to move the rings it will be very close to sighted in. I use a large backer and fire a group, don't care where it is just as long as the group size is what is expected from the gun. If it's not I know the problem is not with the scope I just replaced with the Tasco.
 There are quite a few of these older pistol scopes cheap on ebay, they make great  testing tools!

 Frank

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by killswitch on 3/2/2017, 10:24 am

If you have a ransom rest or a way to secure weaver rail in a vise you can test your scopes backlash and repeatability mounting and scope a target. I setup my RR and use a 50ft target out at 50 yards. Run the clickers in and out to determine how many dead clicks there are. I always adjust clockwise so if i need to go CCW 3 and have 3 dead clicks I know I need to go atleast 6 clicks CCW then 3 clicks CW. You can also test repeatability by running the clickers a few full turns back and forth to see if they come back. If not the issue is internal and not your mounting. I also use my RR to change scopes when I need to. Just mount mark a wall where dot is, mount new scope and adjust clickers to dot.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by Wobbley on 3/2/2017, 11:44 am

The normal test for scopes is to fire a 5 shot group in the center, then click down 10 MOA and left 10 MOA, shoot 5 shots, up 20 MOA and another 5, right 20 MOA another 5, down 20 MOA another 5, then up 10 and left 10 for another 5.  The first and second center group should overlap ant there shouldn't be any first shot fliers in the other groups.

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by killswitch on 3/2/2017, 1:29 pm

Wobbley wrote:The normal test for scopes is to fire a 5 shot group in the center, then click down 10 MOA and left 10 MOA, shoot 5 shots, up 20 MOA and another 5, right 20 MOA another 5, down 20 MOA another 5, then up 10 and left 10 for another 5.  The first and second center group should overlap ant there shouldn't be any first shot fliers in the other groups.

That works too I'm sure, but with 30 rounds down range. I'm just trying to see if the scope repeats and find dead clicks removing shooter, ammo and gun accuracy from the equation. Plus I can do this at home. Not saying my way is the best, it's just what I do and another of 1000 ways to do it.
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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by bdas on 3/2/2017, 1:42 pm

killswitch wrote:If you have a ransom rest or a way to secure weaver rail in a vise you can test your scopes backlash and repeatability mounting and scope a target. I setup my RR and use a 50ft target out at 50 yards. Run the clickers in and out to determine how many dead clicks there are. I always adjust clockwise so if i need to go CCW 3 and have 3 dead clicks I know I need to go atleast 6 clicks CCW then 3 clicks CW. You can also test repeatability by running the clickers a few full turns back and forth to see if they come back. If not the issue is internal and not your mounting. I also use my RR to change scopes when I need to. Just mount mark a wall where dot is, mount new scope and adjust clickers to dot.

I'm fuzzy on the part that says "Run the clickers in and out to determine how many dead clicks there are".  Could you elaborate on the procedure you use to determine the dead click count?

Thanks,
Dave

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Re: Possible Ultradot problem

Post by killswitch on 3/2/2017, 2:18 pm

Sure, this is also known as backlash. If you watch the dot as your adjust the sight you will see it move in relation to the target. once you have moved in one direction you then reverse and count how many clicks it takes to get the dot or crosshair to move again. The number before the one that made it move is your dead click count. Verify the dead clicks in both directions (usually the same) and do both Elevation and windage (not always the same). Most of my ultradots are 3 to 4 ( have one that is 6). Aimpoints maybe 2 if that.

Edit: Obviously this is done with the scope secured solid. I use weaver rail in my bridgeport vise or a ransom rest.
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