What's going on?

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What's going on?

Post by Tim:H11 on 3/6/2017, 5:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

Why is it that so many gravitate towards run n' gun sorts and not Precision Pistol? I'm 28 years old and I fear this sport and others like it won't be as active when I'm older. Heck they aren't as active now compared to years ago. I work at the range on the weekends as a range safety officer and often shooters ask me for help or advice to improve. But they don't want to shoot Precision Pistol they just want to shoot 15 yards or closer and move around and work from the holster. It looks fun but I feel there's more to be said about a pistol shooters marksmanship and his abilities when challenged at 50 yards.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by BE Mike on 3/8/2017, 8:27 am

kjanracing wrote:Defensive skills would probably be a good thing to have. I'm worried that if I had to pull my gun on an intruder, I'd be listening for the range commands before I fired!
The fact of the matter, except for combat military types and police, the "defensive" games aren't relevant to actual skills needed for civilian self defense. Having an educated trigger finger is so much more important than the other "skills" learned in IDPA and IPSC, etc. Pretty much all that a civilian needs to learn is how to draw his/ her defensive pistol/ revolver from where they really carry it, present it with a two-handed grip and then the bullseye skills take over.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 3/8/2017, 9:02 am

JMO...If you want "defensive skills", go to a REPUTABLE course and get proper training.  Playing games will only get you so far and it may be the wrong direction.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by Wobbley on 3/8/2017, 9:57 am

kjanracing wrote:Defensive skills would probably be a good thing to have. I'm worried that if I had to pull my gun on an intruder, I'd be listening for the range commands before I fired!
Make a recording of the range commands.  Play it loud when you hear an intruder in your home as you grab your pistol from the nightstand.  I bet there won't be an intruder within a mile of your house.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by Magload on 3/8/2017, 3:53 pm

kjanracing wrote:Defensive skills would probably be a good thing to have. I'm worried that if I had to pull my gun on an intruder, I'd be listening for the range commands before I fired!
Yes I worked on defensive shooting for two years after not firing a pistol for 32 years.  Well late last year I decided to take up BE after getting bored with shooting 3 to 10yds two handed.  Well last week I needed to shoot my new Shield 45 ACP and break it in along with a new Holster.  I was going to shoot double taps and after the first two rounds I relized that I was holding the gun in one hand.  At least my support hand didn't end up in my pocket.  Don
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Re: What's going on?

Post by Model19 on 3/8/2017, 5:19 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:JMO...If you want "defensive skills", go to a REPUTABLE course and get proper training.  Playing games will only get you so far and it may be the wrong direction.
I'll  second that.  Having run a fair share of LEO's both Fed and local through IDPA and action rifle matches, I've seen the clash between their ingrained training and the game's rules.   They don't give a damn about the 180 rule, they reload in the open if needed, some bark commands like "Drop your weapon!" during the draw.... the list goes on.  They train to stay alive for real.  The gamers, for all the talk, don't, at least not with the same level of commitment.  It's not a good or bad thing, it just is what it is.
On the flip side, after a winter season of 50' BE shooting, a buddy and myself were both tremendously thrilled to see the improvement in our IDPA scores at the first match of the summer several years ago.  We did not transition any faster or game it any better but we sure shifted into rapid fire mode without thinking and shot nifty tight little  down zero groups on each target easily.  
Hard to beat the core skills this game teaches you.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Jon Eulette on 3/8/2017, 6:43 pm

rreid wrote:https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/6/9/rob-leatham-action-pistol-s-great-one-part-2-of-our-interview/

Rob Leatham thinks bullseye is hard
I shot Desert Mid-Winters with him in Phoenix (he scored me). He's an expert. In my opinion he has a mental block dealing with heavier weight trigger pull. He has potential.
Jon
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Re: What's going on?

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 3/8/2017, 8:22 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:
rreid wrote:https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2015/6/9/rob-leatham-action-pistol-s-great-one-part-2-of-our-interview/

Rob Leatham thinks bullseye is hard
I shot Desert Mid-Winters with him in Phoenix (he scored me). He's an expert. In my opinion he has a mental block dealing with heavier weight trigger pull. He has potential.
Jon

I shared a table with him at Perry last year...the skills are something to aspire to.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by BE Mike on 3/9/2017, 8:25 am

For those who like to shoot their .32's, .380's, 9mm's and .38 SPL's in centerfire, by eliminating the NMC and having three 600 matches, it makes everybody happy, especially those who want to shoot the bigger pistols (revolvers) twice as much as the .22. Having matches on Saturdays, rather than Sundays can also be a consideration.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by mpolans on 3/9/2017, 3:37 pm

I like USPSA and I like bullseye and ISSF pistol disciplines (as well as some other disciplines, too). Variety is the spice of life. Curiously, I met bullseye great Bill Blankenship about 15 years ago...at a USPSA match where we were on the same squad! He was shooting an Open Division gun.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Cd627 on 3/10/2017, 8:28 pm

I think there's a few things going on here. For most casual shooters, action is more entertaining. In any given competition there is a big group of people who do it for entertainment value. Shooting 130 rounds in a day usually comes off as more fun than shooting 30 in the same time. The "easy" factor is deceptive. Local matches are frequently close up targets and a less experienced shooter can shoot clean, but the amount of time it takes them to get there is staggering. Theres also way more action shooting match availability than bullseye. 

Most action handgun is 15 - 20 yards. I've shot bigger matches with shots out to 50. One reason shots required aren't super precise is that the format is about relative accuracy and speed. The game is 30+ years old so it isn't new; the tactical aesthetic is new though. I know a few world champion action shooters and none of them are winning championships by shooting poorly. They can all shoot a high number of points and they do it with insane speed. I once witnessed one at a practice range smoking steel at 100 yards. Strong and weak hand is not a huge focus so they don't do s ton of one handed shooting. Either way, true speed while maintaining accuracy is hard. I envy the guys that can do it. A lot of great USPSA shooters started as bullseye. 

I think what makes going from that to bullseye difficult, from experience, is grip. In action sports you have to mash on the trigger and drive the gun hard. In bullseye, there are no target transitions so all of the emphasis is on the shot. It's difficult, all shooting is. I can't think of any "gimme" formats where Joe Schmie can waltz in and dominate without practice.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Magload on 3/11/2017, 9:06 am

BE has helped my action shooting so much.  Worked on shooting IDPA for two years and shooting a target zero down was not a problem, 3 months of learning BE has tighten mt groups to where I can place two shots a a inch apart at 15yds  and a head shot at that distance is no problem.  I can easy make that shot at 25yds and haven't seen a stage with a target that far yet.  95% of the shooting being done at the indoor range I belong to is Self defense practice and most of those shooter need it as they miss a 8" target at 5 yards a lot.  The range just replaced the ceiling tile this week.  Don
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Re: What's going on?

Post by MarkOue on 3/11/2017, 9:37 am

Decades ago I got to practice counter terrorism techniques with an H&K MP5.  Run and gun with a fully automatic submachine gun was a hoot!  A year prior to that I had been on the Marine Corps Rifle Team so hitting the targets wasn’t hard at all. 
 
Now take that up to this decade.  A few years ago I started carrying a concealed handgun. In my mind I could certainly make the mythical 25 yard head shot to save a hostage…  Too bad my practice revealed that despite earning 22 points toward Distinguished Pistol Shot in the Corps, almost three decades of time had eroded my skills.  Hmmm, why not take up bullseye shooting to regain my pistol skills and earn my Distinguished Pistol Shot? 
 
So I build a safety berm in my back field and practiced, practiced, and practiced. Shooting Perry in 2015 found me close but not points.  So I practiced more, and more, and more.  I also stepped up from a Les Bear to an Accuracy X 1911 which really helped my scores.  At Perry in 2016 I legged out with a 277-3X.  Not a bad score for an old rifle shooter.  I’ll be at Perry again this year trying to best my last score.
 
So what’s the point?  As Gary Anderson once told me that mastering the fundamentals is most important.  Perhaps Zen and the art of pistol shooting is gained through dry firing, mental preparation, and refinement of skills via bullseye shooting. 
 

I’d like to try some action pistol shooting as it looks like fun.  I will however continue to play that mental game of chess against my own shortcomings, along with the wind, light, rain, and those black bulls some 25 and 50 yards distant.  Action shooting for me will just be an entertaining diversion from trying to master the fundamentals of pistol shooting.  Do any of us ever fully master the fundamentals of pistol shooting?

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Cd627 on 3/11/2017, 10:54 am

Brian Enos, one of the best action pistol shooters that has ever been, talks a lot about Zen. Realistically, the mental approach to shooting action pistol, bullseye, high power rifle, or anything is a universal thing. I don't think anyone ever masters the fundamentals: there's always a threshold to push. You can always be more consistent, faster, tighter, etc. The best shooters in any discipline are insanely consistent, they have a strong mental game, and they aren't thrown off by environmental curveballs.

I still think availability and entertainment value will continue to hurt bullseye. NRA Action Pistol and the Bianchi Cup are comparable in a few ways. It's been a dying format. Ranges need some props to make it work, and in addition to that, Bianchi Cup is difficult. Shooting moving targets off a barricade or needing to go 1 for 1 on steel plates from 15, 25, and 50 yards is some serious shooting with a handgun. You can either do it or you can't. There's not a lot of "luck factor" that can help.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Aprilian on 3/11/2017, 11:38 am

I've never shot or watched action pistol.  I have a question for those who have shot both based on the limited YouTube videos I have watched.

To me, it seemed that the action stages were over fairly quickly so a shooter, who has a concentration (mental discipline) lapse, gets a fairly long time to "reset" their mental game and start another stage later.

Is that a key difference between action and bullseye, that poor mental discipline must be dealt with much more quickly in BE?   I know we all are told to say "this next shot is the only one that matters" to ourselves, but when things go south I often struggle to be able to hit the mental reset quickly while scoring/patching the last target shot.  I am looking at the product of my mistakes while trying to prepare for the next perfect string.

Might that be part of the appeal of the faster paced action sports - that it is lest mentally demanding?
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Re: What's going on?

Post by james r chapman on 3/11/2017, 12:54 pm

Bullsye needs a tactile response. The ringing of the steel.
Something like a steel 10 ring at 50 yds. And x ring at 25.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Magload on 3/11/2017, 1:12 pm

I would have to bring one of you guys along to do the shooting if I wanted to hear what that sounded like.  Don
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Re: What's going on?

Post by james r chapman on 3/11/2017, 1:22 pm

Me too! Lol
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Re: What's going on?

Post by Ed Hall on 3/11/2017, 1:39 pm

Aprilian wrote:...
I am looking at the product of my mistakes while trying to prepare for the next perfect string...
And, therein lies a problem.  Unless you're evaluating during training, don't qualify your shots.  Cover up holes from the outside in so the last images are of those in the middle.  Never ask yourself, "what did I do wrong?"  Do ask yourself, "How did I get those in the black?"  Think, "How can I improve?" rather than, "How can I stop messing up?"

As to fundamentals, they can take you a long way, but they also have levels of understanding that change as you progress.  I have mentioned this many times and will here again:  My move from Master to High Master did not come about from mastering fundamentals in a better way.  My move to High Master came about from an attitude change.  That attitude change may have affected my fundamentals understanding, but it was the attitude change that moved me above the HM breakpoint.

As to time between trigger pulls, whatever that time may be, fill it with positive aspects.

I'm not shouting, but I want to emphasize this firmly:

Do not get into verbal wars with your friend over who has the worse shot, target, match, day, during those breaks you do have!! (This behavior is especially common at lunch.)

If your friend wants to go down that path, either steer them away or send them away.

Remember to find out what sends the shots into the middle and focus on refining that behavior.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Cd627 on 3/11/2017, 1:44 pm

I think it's more mentally demanding. There's a lot of things to consider on top of the usual performance anxiety. In stages with a lot of movement, efficiency is key. Taking one step too many or going too hard into a position can cause a loss of a second or more. The increase of variables makes for way more chances to have a mental misstep. Missing a shot (calling it or seeing a target not fall) can badly affect even top shooters. Some stages also require remembering a certain plan and sequence of events. One bad stage or in some cases, one bad shot can ruin your placement for the entire event. If you become aware of a stage plan going wrong, you need the mental discipline to fix it right then and there or else the whole stage will be a disaster. Personally, excess time between stages decreases my performance. I like shooting, having a brief interlude, then getting back into it.

Again, I think the appeal is round count and being tacticool.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by mpolans on 3/11/2017, 2:13 pm

Aprilian wrote:I've never shot or watched action pistol.  I have a question for those who have shot both based on the limited YouTube videos I have watched.

To me, it seemed that the action stages were over fairly quickly so a shooter, who has a concentration (mental discipline) lapse, gets a fairly long time to "reset" their mental game and start another stage later.

Is that a key difference between action and bullseye, that poor mental discipline must be dealt with much more quickly in BE?   I know we all are told to say "this next shot is the only one that matters" to ourselves, but when things go south I often struggle to be able to hit the mental reset quickly while scoring/patching the last target shot.  I am looking at the product of my mistakes while trying to prepare for the next perfect string.

Might that be part of the appeal of the faster paced action sports - that it is lest mentally demanding?
Just to clarify, there are several "action" disciplines being discussed here, and they vary in significant ways.

First, there's U.S. Practical Shooting Association (USPSA), which features several divisions ranging from Production guns to Open guns with red dots, compensators, and 26-round mags. Scoring is generally done by points divided by time to come up with a "hit factor," and points awarded for a hit can vary depending on the "power factor" of your ammo (bullet weight x velocity / 1000). There aren't really any set courses of fire (stages) and trying to figure out the best way (target order, shooting position, etc) to shoot a given stage is good part of the fun. I've seen targets from 0-50 yards out, with most in the 7-20 yard range. Stages tend to be over in well under a minute.

Then, there's International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA). A break away from USPSA that tries to emphasize the idea of shooting from concealed carry and being defensive. Folks all wear "i have a gun" vests (fishing vests or similar) for concealment and most guns have very limited modifications. Scoring is based solely on time, with less than perfect hits adding seconds to your score. Except for a qualification course, there aren't any set courses of fire, however, shooting order of targets is strictly regulated, so there is rarely any deviation in how competitors shoot a stage. Most targets I've seen were 7-15 yards out. Stages tend to be over in well under a minute.

NRA Action Pistol is a shooting discipline that is mostly defunct except for the annual 4-stage national championship match known as the Bianchi Cup. Scoring is based solely on points accumulated. All courses of fire consist of multiple strings of fire with fixed time limits. All courses of fire a specified, and while there are about a dozen different official courses of fire, most folks don't know or care about any other than the four used in the Bianchi Cup. For the four courses used in the Bianchi Cup, target distances vary from 7-50 yards, and while the shooters draw from holsters, they do not move from their starting position during a string of fire. In one course, there is a moving target that moves left and right. The time limits per string are not particularly onerous for most USPSA shooters, though many bullseye shooters might find them short. The Bianchi Cup is much more an accuracy match than a speed match; every match in the past 20 years has been won by a perfect score (1920/1920) except one, with many often being determined based on X-count. Courses of fire consisting of multiple strings may take 10 minutes or so to complete.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by Magload on 3/11/2017, 2:23 pm

My BE shooting is progressing as I can see it when I pull a shot it is still in the scoring area.  I have quit scoring my practice targets just counting how many I am getting in the black.  I am shooting 20yd targets indoors and will move to 50 feet as soon as I run out of 20yd targets.  I can see all my shots now moving into the center but the thing that bothers me is I feel I am just aiming at the black not the X.  I guess that will come.  Don
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Re: What's going on?

Post by Keyholed on 3/12/2017, 3:19 am

While it's easy and attractive to blame action pistol's "low-brow" appeal, or a lack of skill/discipline on the part of today's shooters, I don't think it's correct. And I definitely think it doesn't help the situation.

To start with, a lot of guys seem to pick up BE later in life. What that means is that a lot of the BE shooters of my generation (I'm 31) aren't shooting Bullseye yet. Why is that? Well, many people 30 and under just don't have the time and disposable income to compete in anything. For them, .22 rimfire gallery matches could be attractive. The guns are cheap and optics-ready (more on that later), and the ammo bill is only going to run a measly $2. A 300 takes about 20 minutes to shoot. No need to convince the wife to watch the kids all Saturday while you shoot, you can compete on your way home from work.

Unfortunately, I think a lot of us can agree, a lot of the more...elitist bullseye shooters (few and far between though they may be) make their home in club-level gallery leagues. I'd say that we don't exactly put our best face out there in these sorts of events. Maybe we need to shoot those types of events more often--and call out bad behavior when we see it. They're a critical part of the pipeline between a new BE shooter and 2700 matches.

I also think that the guns people are buying play a role. You can buy an optics-ready Sig, Glock, or striker-fired S&W for not a lot of money these days (which is all it takes to pummel most newbie action shooters into the ground). Compare that with the price tag for picking up a Springfield Range Officer in .45, having the slide drilled and tapped for a rail (a permanent modification), and sticking an Ultradot on it. And let's be honest, dudes--if you want to be competitive in Bullseye, a red dot makes a big difference.

Again--Indoor gallery matches. A Ruger or Browning sets you back about $400, and a dot goes for another $80-$160. And a lot of younger guys already have an "old .22" (usually a Mk III or a Browning) they got from their dads.

Third thing is--shooting clubs are in a decline. A lot more people are shooting at paid ranges these days. In urban and suburban areas, paid ranges might be all that's available. In my area, we have a different problem--of the six or seven clubs, all but one has a multi-year waiting list, and that one is a bullseye club only. If you want to attract new shooters, you need to start by gathering them all up so you can advertise to them. You can't do that with a paid range, or with a stagnant club membership.

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Re: What's going on?

Post by john bickar on 3/12/2017, 5:18 am

Keyholed, I think you're absolutely right on points #1 and #3 (don't know much about your #2 point, other than to say that we try to be as welcoming as possible to newbies in our bullseye league).

When I started shooting bullseye, I was a young teenager, and most shooters were in their 50s and 60s. Now, some decades later, I'm 29 (*cough* *wink*), and most bullseye shooters are in their 50s and 60s.

Both clubs that I'm active in have a membership cap, with a long waiting list. That's definitely putting a drag on our bullseye participation.
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Re: What's going on?

Post by CR10X on 3/12/2017, 8:30 am

Well, first off this has been discussed about a 1,000 times on this forum, the previous one, the list serve, and the first message board. 

I've been running matches for years.  I've had shooters come and go and come back again.  Some we've lost to old age, some to the costs of war, some have gone on to the big range.  I've had shooters that were "hot shots" at their local indoor range come and shoot one 2700, and never returned; and really good shooters with some natural ability (like the ability to listen) that were "coached" into mediocrity by others that should never have spoken. 

Matches have a couple of types of shooters but generally they are there for competition (against themselves) and a social event with mostly like minded people. 

Bullseye is hard and most people do not like hard.

Learning to shoot precisely is hard, most people will not not learn.

Most people who really like Bullseye (and most precision shooting sports) are generally internally driven, not externally driven.

Bullseye is the yoga sport in a X games shooting world.  It's a different mindset and generally appeals to people that have reached a specific time and mental state in their lives (Of course John Bicker and some others are exceptions to this, but then again, they are not "most people".)

However, for those that do like hard, are willing to learn and are internally driven, this is generally a lifelong sport like no other.

No matter what type of range is available, is you want to shoot bullseye and there is not a match; then figure out how to start one.  Then those internally driven shooters will have a place to get started.  

Fortunately in our state we have 2700 matches about every weekend and locally an indoor league that provides introduction to bullseye shooting that has about 4 matches (2 pistol, 2 air pistol) each month. That is developing shooters, some of which have begun moving to the full, outdoor 2700 matches. (Thanks Willie!) 

I generally agree with most everything to this point except for a couple of statements.

Do not "aim", keep the gun parallel with the intended line of flight, sights aligned and let the wobble decrease.  "Aiming" at a point is not how to shoot a 10 but how to create a condition that does not allow good trigger control.  

A red dot scope is NOT needed to be competitive.  As a matter of fact, the availability and ease of installing red dots by shooters that have not mastered the fundamentals of how to align the gun and hold it parallel to the line of sight during the trigger operation; as opposed to trying to aim at a point and trying to pick off the shot; has probably led to more eternal Experts than about any other equipment issues. It's very hard to see how the grip and trigger operation are affecting the sight alignment with a dot versus using open sights. Learning to shoot an open sight Ruger .22 to Master scores will require learning the fundamentals completely and will take a shooter further than a red dot by itself ever will.  

Again, thanks to all the shooters, match directors and other supporters of the sport!

Cecil

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Re: What's going on?

Post by MarkOue on 3/12/2017, 8:49 am

CR10X wrote:

Bullseye is hard and most people do not like hard.

Learning to shoot precisely is hard, most people will not not learn.

Most people who really like Bullseye (and most precision shooting sports) are generally internally driven, not externally driven.

Bullseye is the yoga sport in a X games shooting world.  It's a different mindset and generally appeals to people that have reached a specific time and mental state in their lives 

Cecil

Cecil,

Truer words were never spoken...  

The best bullseye shooters in either pistol or rifle are rarely narcissistic.  No Kim Kardashians on the range, or at least winning a bullseye match!  Humble is good general description for them.   On those very rare occasions when I've bested a much better shooter, usually on a nasty weather day, they always come to me offering congratulations!  

Maybe many became bullseye shooter because they are introverts?  Chances are that why I enjoy the mental chess game of shooting rather than watching others play sports on TV.  

As for the yoga, if one ever wants to be humbled, take a few yoga classes and you will realize how mentally and physically demanding it is.  

Once again, great words Cecil!


Last edited by MarkOue on 3/12/2017, 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Spelling)

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