Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

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Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Lightfoot on Tue Mar 21, 2017 11:32 am

I must admit that I've been shooting for 9 months without a written shot plan.  I excused this because I didn't know what my process was since it's been morphing with every match.  Well the last few days during some breaks at work, I've got a draft going and my question to all is, should I include calling shots and scoping them to verify my call and sight settings?  (slow fire)

I've had many good shooters tell me to not scope very much.  I guess by that they mean every 8-10 shots at the most.  I know it's a head game trick, but I suppose it could work either way.  I've scoped every shot and had 5 in a row in the 10 &x ring, and I've scoped every shot and not done so well.  I've not looked at all and walked down to find about 80 points on the target with no 10's even though I thought all was well.  I know that when I know I have a good target going that it's hard to get those last couple of shots to complete the string, so In that case, scoping would get in my head.  I also get confidence by calling correctly and verifying the call, whether it was an X or a 8 at 3:00.   I guess what I'm saying is I've had failure and success with looking and not looking.

I'd like to hear what some of you do.  Specifically how do you address scoping in your shot plan.  I want my plan to be simple and direct.  I don't want paragraphs, flow charts, if/then assessments to make this more difficult to stay on plan.  I want a plan that allows for visiting and distractions, but hones in on the shot once the gun is in my hand and the shooting begins.

Thanks and looking forward to reading your replies.
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Jon Eulette on Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:03 pm

BS! You absolutely have to scope your shots! How do you know whether you're forcing shots or not? Example; you shoot 5 10's with 1st magazine. You reload and shoot 5 8's at 9 o'clock but you didn't scope the shots. You could have made correction. Without scoping you don't know. You should be able to call your shots as they break anyhow. Shoot the shot! Call the shot! Scope the shot! It reinforces the good and helps you identify thd bad. Scope'em!
Jon
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Bullseye58 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:08 pm

I call & scope every slow fire shot, and scope my sustained fire targets in between strings. Calling your shot is fundamental to a successful shot process. How do you know the basic fundamentals are working if you have no idea where your shots are striking on target? Definitely call and scope your shots!
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Chris Miceli on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:BS! You absolutely have to scope your shots! How do you know whether you're forcing shots or not? Example; you shoot 5 10's with 1st magazine. You reload and shoot 5 8's at 9 o'clock but you didn't scope the shots. You could have made correction. Without scoping you don't know. You should be able to call your shots as they break anyhow. Shoot the shot! Call the shot! Scope the shot! It reinforces the good and helps you identify thd bad. Scope'em!
Jon
so scope the first 2 shots of each mag and if they are on call good to go?
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by jglenn21 on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:24 pm

I watched a man shoot a 2663 this weekend and he looked at every long line shot..
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Lightfoot on Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:27 pm

jglenn21 wrote:I watched a man shoot a 2663 this weekend and he looked at every long line shot..
Well yeah, but what does he know about it?   Smile
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by C.Perkins on Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:42 pm

Had two mentors when I started shooting BE in AZ 9 years ago.
Shot along side of them, they scored me, I scored them, talked and discussed fundamentals all the time.
Learned a lot and shot a lot.
To the subject at hand; scoping shots.
I learned to scope every long line shot and maybe get a peak at a short line shot if i had time before it edged but usually you don't; because you should use up all of the time given you is what i learned.
These were both high masters and I learned from them to do the same cause it made sense and it works.
I thank these gentlemen for taking me to master.
Now that the wife and I moved back to the mid west to retire I do not shoot anywhere as much and my scores show it, but I still enjoy it when I can.

Clarence

P.S.
Thank you Steve Reiter and Jon Zurek.
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Ed Hall on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:26 pm

I've played in both directions and I'll tell a few personal experiences:

- I didn't use a spotting scope for a season and found that I failed to acquire about 5 points a gun on average by zeroing after scoring.

- I stopped scoping after three shots on a Mayleigh Cup tryout and missed being a firing member that year because I (apparently) miscalled the three shot group.

- I've scoped all ten tens (and Xs) on a lot of Slow Fire 100s.

- I've shot some 100 Slow Fires without scoping.

- I've scoped good shots until I called a wide one, at which time I stopped scoping physically so I wouldn't see a wide hole, and finished by mentally scoping the rest of what turned out to be a pretty good target.

Now to the OP, you should be able to scope every shot without it affecting the next, other than if you need to make a correction.  You should also be observing the shot to pick up on nuances in your process.  If you put scoping in your process, be sure to scope every shot/TF string for consistency.  Otherwise, you will be wondering if you should, instead of processing the current shot.

Don't forget to have follow through in between the shot and the scoping.  Don't try to see the bullet hit the paper.

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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by CR10X on Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:34 pm

Here's the questions I ask shooters when this question comes up.  
Which one depends on how I feel that day.

What's the difference between a Marksman scoping a shot and a Master scoping a shot?

The Marksman is looking for where the shot went.  The Master is looking to confirm the shot is where he called it.

Why do we scope a shots?

The general answer from most shooters is, "To see where the shot went."
The better answer is "To make sure the hole was where the shot was called."

In the first case in each example, the shot was not called or maybe called incorrectly.  In the second case, the shooter is confirming the hole is where it was called.  If not, sight adjustments, equipment or ammunition issues need to be addressed (and generally as soon as possible!)  Accuracy, equipment, loading, training, etc., all pales in comparison to the ability to accurately and consistently call the shot.  

So yes, I believe we should scope as many shots as possible.  But make sure we are doing it for the best reason and purpose.  Scoping is essential in getting feedback on calling the shot.  If the hole isn't where it was called, then something was not seen as well as it should have been.

Just some ramblings.

Good luck. 
Cecil


“To Scope or Not to Scope…that is the question.”
 
Whether tis nobler to cast thine eye only upon the sight, and believing only in one’s instincts, finding one’s true center only in the minds eye until the walk of doom is upon you.
 
Or lose thyself within the tube of terror and face the reality of one’s own short-coming and frailty, the results hanging there, like little satellites orbiting the dark center of our souls…
 
What's the difference between a Marksman and a Master scoping a shot?  (Why do we scope shots?)
 
Answer:  The Marksman is generally looking for where the shot went, the Master is checking to see how close he called the shot to where it actually landed.  (Shots should be scoped to confirm the shot call, not to find out where it went.  If we need to scope for that, then we are not "calling" the shot.)
 
Any way you look at it, you eventually have to look at the results of your shots so why not go ahead and scope your shots?  Not for analysis, but to confirm what you were supposed to have already seen when the shot was fired.  And if the results are not similar, wouldn’t you want to know NOW, before the other 9 shots go down range?

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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Lightfoot on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:25 am

Thanks to all of you for helping me with my question.  I was hoping to leave scoping in my shot process.  High Masters speak, I listen.
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Lightfoot on Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:31 am

Ed Hall wrote:
Now to the OP, you should be able to scope every shot without it affecting the next, other than if you need to make a correction.  You should also be observing the shot to pick up on nuances in your process.  If you put scoping in your process, be sure to scope every shot/TF string for consistency.  Otherwise, you will be wondering if you should, instead of processing the current shot.

Don't forget to have follow through in between the shot and the scoping.  Don't try to see the bullet hit the paper.

So you are saying to scope timed fire strings? Not rapid fire since there's not time to see the target before it edges?  I tend to think that trying to finish in time to scope a sustained fire string could cause stress and a rushing of the string.  Can you address this in more detail?  Is it ok to have a shot plan that calls for scoping slow fire and not sustained fire?
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by john bickar on Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:16 am

Search "scoping" here and on targettalk.org. There have been some good discussions.

TL;DR: scope every shot.
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Jon Eulette on Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:28 am

When I transition from 50 to 25 is the only time I scope shortline to verify correct zero. It's a TF so I execute 5 perfect shots with follow through and then scope. No rushing! 
Jon
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Re: Scoping/ Calling Shots in Shot Plan

Post by Ed Hall on Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:39 am

Lightfoot wrote:
Ed Hall wrote:
Now to the OP, you should be able to scope every shot without it affecting the next, other than if you need to make a correction.  You should also be observing the shot to pick up on nuances in your process.  If you put scoping in your process, be sure to scope every shot/TF string for consistency.  Otherwise, you will be wondering if you should, instead of processing the current shot.

Don't forget to have follow through in between the shot and the scoping.  Don't try to see the bullet hit the paper.

So you are saying to scope timed fire strings? Not rapid fire since there's not time to see the target before it edges?  I tend to think that trying to finish in time to scope a sustained fire string could cause stress and a rushing of the string.  Can you address this in more detail?  Is it ok to have a shot plan that calls for scoping slow fire and not sustained fire?
Very Good Question!

The best situation is to concentrate on the process of producing tens.  And, notice again, my last couple sentences.  However, if after you have performed your follow through for a Timed Fire string, you still have time, you may want to confirm your short line zero.  You should never even try to check during Rapid Fire.  You should also never check to see how far out a flier was or how bad the group was or any other negative aspects.  Let the last image be of the centered shots.

There is another aspect to scoping.  Be determined in whatever you decide.  It can be detrimental to a subsequent string, by not scoping and wondering, rather than scoping and knowing.

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