45. ACP case length

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45. ACP case length

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:17 pm

Just curious how many shooters sort their 45 ACP cases by length ?   At 25 yards many swear that lubed rocks will keep them in the ten ring but how about at 50 yards?

Reason for asking in I have a fair number of new Star Line brass from the same lot that varies from a long of .895 to a short of .882. which means that the crimp will vary if I indiscriminately load these.  A lot of these have case mouths that are not square either and if I square them up they will be even shorter .  

Should I sort by case length or just shoot what I have for the long line ?


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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Al on Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:53 pm

While I've never sorted by length, I have done some experimentation with a lot of TZZ Match brass to see if uniform length made a difference in ransom tests.  I did some duplicate loads with misc (just grabbed a handful & loaded them) and some that I trimmed to .880, which happened to be just short of the shortest case I could find.  Used Zero 200 swaged SWC, Clays, WLP, Dillon 550B.

I didn't find much difference in the pit run brass vs the trimmed brass, but IIRC, there was slightly better accuracy with the uniformly trimmed brass.  I may have thrown the targets, but I'll look this weekend to see if I kept them & give some accurate measurements.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Chris Miceli on Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:53 pm

theoretically If every round was the same. Shouldn't they all go through the same hole?
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Wobbley on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:01 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:theoretically If every round was the same. Shouldn't they all go through the same hole?
Bench rest shooters have been searching for that answer for a looooonngggg time.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:25 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:theoretically If every round was the same. Shouldn't they all go through the same hole?


But what happens if 5 shots are taken with a case length of .895 and 5 shots are taken with a case length of .882, will all ten shots still go through the same hole?   Theoretically the case difference of .013 of an inch if loaded with the same setup at the same time would end up with different crimps do to OAL of the case would it not?

   Not that I'm that good of a shot to notice but I sometimes wonder why when everything looks and feels right why some shots go off of call.  Is it possible that some of it is do to different case lengths?  I know there are a lot of other variables that can make a shot go off call but if we can eliminate the ones we can control shouldn't our shooting get better all else being equal?

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Blsi2600 on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:03 pm

Accuracy is much more the quality of the bullet than anything to do with the case.

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Tim:H11 on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Its not the ammo. I shot mid to high expect class scores with a stock RO last year. And I was new to the 45! My ammo was a 200gr LSWC that I cast from wheel weights with a Lee mold. I didn't size them. I tumble lubed with Lee Liquid Allox. The bullet was a design that was intended for a Lubersizer (Had a lube groove) not tumble lube but you can tumble lube anything. My brass was mixed brass from a range and some (possibly many) had been reloaded multiple times by myself before because I save my brass. When I cant find it I get more from the range. 

It's not the ammo. You should take care to loading the ammo but you don't need to beat your self up to trying to perfect it. Sometimes good enough is all you need to put shots where you need them to go. The .45 ACP is a forgiving cartridge. Not so picky and not so stubborn. The GUN... The 1911 is a finicky beast. The grip angle coupled with a linear trigger instead of the more common pivoting trigger... the gun it self should have more time invested in it in terms of learning how to shoot it properly than worrying about ammo. 

Just my thoughts on the matter. To answer your original question shortly - Shoot what you got. Load and trust the press and the ammo. If you can't trust your gear you can't focus on what needs focusing on.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:24 pm

It was more of a curiosity question than a worry.  Reading threads about crimp to this degree and don't over crimp/ under crimp or you'll get bad accuracy has had this rolling around in my head for a while.  The other thing bouncing around in my melon was people say that Star Line is very consistent and I was shocked to find such a variance in the lengths of the same lot number.

If I would find other productive things to keep my feeble mind occupied I wouldn't be thinking of these small things.

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Wobbley on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:32 pm

If you need something to concentrate your mind on, go to a range and work on your shot process....
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Virgil Kane on Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:53 pm

Wobbley wrote:If you need something to concentrate your mind on, go to a range and work on your shot process....


The pain part being $$$$. 

Lots of things to concentrate on but I have a wondering mind, that's why I'm only a SS.   lol!

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Chris Miceli on Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:15 pm

I'm sure Keefer has said you need accurate ammo and guns. I say add those with some skill.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Sa-tevp on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:13 pm

Virgil Kane wrote:
Reason for asking in I have a fair number of new Star Line brass from the same lot that varies from a long of .895 to a short of .882. which means that the crimp will vary if I indiscriminately load these.  A lot of these have case mouths that are not square either and if I square them up they will be even shorter .  
 0.882" is a strange number. Being a somewhat new reloader I sort by length (two measurements 90 degree apart) and new Starline always runs between 0.892 to 0.895" for me. Squareness tends to vary 0.0015" so I use the shortest measurement to sort by.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Jon Eulette on Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:29 pm

Last time I took range brass and rested it I got 1.75" at 50 yds. I just load ammo and shoot it. I only make sure crimp is consistent; as possible for assorted brass. I shot assorted brass this morning for SF practice. I called 99% of my shots and had excellent groups. I'm using the same brass this Sunday for a match. I spend 99% of my time working the trigger and 1% on ammunition. As long as it is reliable and on call I think you can't ask for more. 
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by LenV on Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:35 pm

Using the Dillon taper crimp die with its very gentle taper you would be amazed at how little difference you will get in crimp between the longest, shortest or least square of those rounds. If you are looking for something to totally waste your time on then try measuring the crimp on them after loading. I should mention that a crimp does more then just touch the end of the case. A crimp like I use will take your worries away Virgil.

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by jmdavis on Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:02 pm

All if the Starline I have used has been VERaY consistent. I too found less than a .005 variation in a random sample of 100 out of 1000. I use it for 50 yards. My practice brass i WCC, WCC Match, and federal. As Len points out the The WCC is very consistent and is 1x to 3x  fired before I use it. The federal is mostly 1x fired. I try to only load one headstamp at a time, but I will find an occasional Starline or Federal in my ready WCC brass.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by fpk on Sat May 13, 2017 10:17 pm

Wobbley wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:theoretically If every round was the same. Shouldn't they all go through the same hole?
Bench rest shooters have been searching for that answer for a looooonngggg time.
This article covers what matters and what does not in benchrest accuracy. http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-by-dave-scott-precision-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf

It is a deep hole if you fall into it!

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by noylj on Mon May 15, 2017 12:14 am

First of all, just try sorting them and shooting them and see for yourself if there is any difference.
I can tell you from now until next month that it has no effect for .45 Auto, but really, the only way to know is to try it yourself.
Now, for 9x19, I would say to save the longer cases for critical matches (or buy 9x21 cases and trim them to the actual chamber throat length) for best accuracy.
PS: I have not even found that consistent case length has helped with roll crimps for .38 spl, .357 Mag, or .44 Mag--it just hasn't shown up on targets even out to 100 yards for me.
Now, that might not be true for precision rifle where you are worrying about 0.3 MOA, but then again I have never read an article where any one has actually taken the time to prove or disprove it.

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by willnewton on Mon May 15, 2017 8:48 am

That was a cool article to read.  I'm not interested in precision rifle, but that is just a good story.

It is always interesting to read these threads about minute details.  The crimp discussions and case length and tenths of a grain of ammo.  In nearly all cases, you see the arguments of new shooters trying to learn, middling shooters trying to explain, and experienced shooters saying, "Stop thinking and learn to keep the trigger moving."

I always like the recommendation that you "try it for yourself".  Indeed, nothing will put your mind at ease as much as finding out that the detail you obsess over, matters as much as a fart in a whirlwind when you are standing on the line.

 Thanks to my own experimentation, I know now that it is not about proving that a .001" change in dimension makes a difference in a group shot from a rest.

 It is about showing myself that once in my single hand, I can not shoot a better or worse group because of it.

You can't do a good job with bad gear, but you can do an excellent job with semi-decent gear + diligent practice.  Fix what is between your ears first.  That will make the biggest difference in your groups.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by bdas on Mon May 15, 2017 1:29 pm

willnewton wrote:You can't do a good job with bad gear, but you can do an excellent job with semi-decent gear + diligent practice.  Fix what is between your ears first.  That will make the biggest difference in your groups.

+1 for that.  

The difference between a 3" gun @ 50yds and a 1.5" gun @ 50yds will cost an expert-level shooter an average of about 0.7 points per target (turning your 92 into a 91).  So, minuscule ammo improvements are not likely to buy you a lot of points.

But you DO need reasonably accurate equipment, so it does pay to do some ammo testing with your gun to see what it likes or dislikes.  The difference between a 3" gun @ 50 yds and an 8" gun at 50yds will cost an expert-level shooter an average of 4.4 points per target  (turning your 91 into an 87).  It's extremely difficult to consistently shoot expert-level scores with an 8" gun; a high master should be able to manage it, but just barely (it will turn his 97 into a 91).

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Chris Miceli on Mon May 15, 2017 2:58 pm

Virgil Kane wrote:Just curious how many shooters sort their 45 ACP cases by length ?   At 25 yards many swear that lubed rocks will keep them in the ten ring but how about at 50 yards?

Reason for asking in I have a fair number of new Star Line brass from the same lot that varies from a long of .895 to a short of .882. which means that the crimp will vary if I indiscriminately load these.  A lot of these have case mouths that are not square either and if I square them up they will be even shorter .  

Should I sort by case length or just shoot what I have for the long line ?


Virgil
 Oh man...this thread .... Virgil size your brass( with a full shell plate if progressive) things will be more clear. Ignore the points lost per class pending on gear.
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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Gary Wells on Mon May 15, 2017 7:01 pm

I know that I will probably get flamed & removed from the forum for my response/post, but here it is:
Virgil: There's not a snowballs chance in h-ll that I would accept a lot of new Starline brass if my sample varied .010 & everybody else varied .003. Consider me OCD but I'm curious how big was your sample out of 1K brass, did it run all over the place or was either of your top & bottom weight readings a fluke. If your sample was all over the place I would be on the phone to Starline asking what their tolerance was for .45 auto brass. Right or wrong, important or not, there's no way in h-ll that I would accept a lot that varied .010 when everybody else claims a.003 variation. I feel that I would deserve the same quality of weight consistency that everybody received. IMHO

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Re: 45. ACP case length

Post by Dipnet on Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:20 am

Nothing like data to clarify a topic.

I've read that OAL in straight walled pistol cartridges is not critical since these headspace is on the case mouth. 

I suspect its primary importance of crimping is to facilitate chambering in semi autos; I've had failures to feed in cases that were not crimped (my loading error). In 32 ACP, I get my lowest variation (SDs) in loads that have a very light crimps. In our light target loads, having a crimp to hold the bullet together is not a factor.

I've read that crimping aids accuracy by creating more uniforming start pressures, which seems logical, but I suspect that peak pressures would be more important to accuracy. However, average shooters have no way to measure pressures. best, dipnet
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