Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

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Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by Jack H on 4/9/2017, 8:24 pm

Caution.  Science content.

How do you perceive the trigger in each case?

Roll - is it a single pressure that moves i.e. movement vs time

Crisp - pressure increases without movement i.e. pressure increase over time

Or some other description?
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by LenV on 4/9/2017, 10:42 pm

Crisp: Shooting 25-2 single action

Roll:  Shooting 25-2 double action study
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 4/10/2017, 5:24 am

Crisp: Apply increasing weight to trigger until sear releases hammer without any movement before.

Roll: Apply increasing weight to trigger to start movement of sear against hammer hooks.  Movement is felt the entire length of travel of the sear against the hammer hooks until hammer is released.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by Jack H on 4/10/2017, 5:44 am

So steady pressure during the movement?
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by willnewton on 4/10/2017, 6:34 am

I've got both and you are on the right track.  KC put it most clearly.

Crisp- Pushing against a wall till it falls at 3.5+lbs.

Roll- Rolling a wheel with 3.5lbs force until it falls off the edge of the cliff.

Long, medium, and short rolls vary the distance you roll the wheel.

More pressure will roll the wheel faster, less pressure will stop the wheel.  Here is where you can have a problem.  You start rolling, let off pressure 1/2lb and the trigger stops halfway through your pull.  You cuss to yourself, jump back on the trigger, forget about sight alignment, and wing one into the six ring.

I see a lot of folks jump right up and say "Buy a roll trigger! Blah blah Brians Zins blah blah."  They are partially right.  They do need a roll trigger.  However, they are probably not Brian Zins and should take the length of roll travel into consideration along with their current experience and ability level.

My limited experience is that, the less experienced you are, the shorter your roll should be.  I started long and have switched to med-short roll and am pretty happy about it.  I lack the focus and ability to take advantage of the long roll, but I still like the gentle way a roll trigger ends with a fall off rather than the hard snap of a crisp trigger.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by orpheoet on 4/10/2017, 6:43 am

^well put
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by TomH_pa on 4/10/2017, 12:15 pm

As someone who has zero experience in Bullseye and trying to learn but with a background in  CMP service rifle I found with KC's trigger if I think the roll is too long I just "stage" it a little as I would with the 2 stage trigger in my match AR
For me the roll is much easier to get the gun to go off though wobble than a crisp trigger
Again, I have very little to compare it to

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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by AllAces on 4/10/2017, 2:00 pm

I had both and both shot equally well. I simply like the feel KC's roll trigger vs crisp.  When I shot air pistol I had a two stage crisp trigger and really liked the feel.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by jglenn21 on 4/10/2017, 7:02 pm

I have moved all my pistols to a short roll... To me it's simply a soft let off.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by orpheoet on 4/10/2017, 8:52 pm

I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by daflorc on 4/11/2017, 10:33 pm

orpheoet wrote:I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
How are you incrementally shortening the roll? Filing down the hammer hook?

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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/11/2017, 10:49 pm

Add relief (secondary) cut to the sear. Leave hammer alone.
Jon
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by orpheoet on 4/12/2017, 9:32 am

daflorc wrote:
orpheoet wrote:I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
How are you incrementally shortening the roll? Filing down the hammer hook?
Exactly as Jon said^. It's like a microbevel.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/12/2017, 9:51 am

daflorc wrote:
orpheoet wrote:I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
How are you incrementally shortening the roll? Filing down the hammer hook?
KC can probably weight in here. Why would you spend the $ on the KC hammer to destroy the geometry he put on it?
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by orpheoet on 4/12/2017, 9:59 am

Chris Miceli wrote:
daflorc wrote:
orpheoet wrote:I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
How are you incrementally shortening the roll? Filing down the hammer hook?
KC can probably weight in here. Why would you spend the $ on the KC hammer to destroy the geometry he put on it?
I wouldn't say I 'destroyed the geometry on it' by shortening the roll...........
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by Chris Miceli on 4/12/2017, 10:02 am

orpheoet wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
daflorc wrote:
orpheoet wrote:I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
How are you incrementally shortening the roll? Filing down the hammer hook?
KC can probably weight in here. Why would you spend the $ on the KC hammer to destroy the geometry he put on it?
I wouldn't say I 'destroyed the geometry on it' by shortening the roll...........
did you work on the hammer hooks?
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by orpheoet on 4/12/2017, 12:32 pm

orpheoet wrote:
daflorc wrote:
orpheoet wrote:I'm incrementally shortening the roll on a Battleaxe. It's still a little long but I'm going to try and adapt. Results don't lie and my targets looked good today. Theres just a lot of "holy s*** moments from not keeping the trigger going. But I think that in itself is valuable input. When its working it absolutely feels like "rolling into the X-Ring". I'm the weak link in the system. The revolver analogy is spot on to me. That's exactly how I perceive it. A really short DA revolver.
How are you incrementally shortening the roll? Filing down the hammer hook?
Exactly as Jon said^. It's like a microbevel.
Nope. As stated relieved the primary angle with a secondary. I have it on very good authority that it is the right way to shorten the roll....
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by kc.crawford.7 on 4/13/2017, 8:01 am

Yes that is the "correct / best" way to shorten the roll on one of my trigger kits.  The hooks are not 90 degrees as most of you already know.  To make the roll shorter you need to reduce the amount of primary on the sear face.  This is done by shortening the primary "angle" and is accomplished by creating a secondary or undercut on the sear face.

If you choose to, you can almost make a crisp trigger out of one of my kits.  It actually feels as I call it, an ultra short quick roll.
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

Post by orpheoet on 4/13/2017, 9:39 am

kc.crawford.7 wrote:Yes that is the "correct / best" way to shorten the roll on one of my trigger kits.  The hooks are not 90 degrees as most of you already know.  To make the roll shorter you need to reduce the amount of primary on the sear face.  This is done by shortening the primary "angle" and is accomplished by creating a secondary or undercut on the sear face.

If you choose to, you can almost make a crisp trigger out of one of my kits.  It actually feels as I call it, an ultra short quick roll.
No better authority than the man himself....
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Re: Perception of roll vs crisp trigger

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