A question about a 2700

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A question about a 2700

Post by AndyLueck on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:01 am

Courses of Fire
NRA conventional pistol competition consists of firing slow, timed, and rapid fire. This is done at 50 and 25 yards outdoors and almost exclusively at 50 feet indoors. Generally an outdoor match will consist of 20 shots, slow fire at 50 yards (two 10-shot strings, 10 minutes per string), 20 shots, timed fire at 25 yards (four 5-shot strings, 20 seconds per string), 20 shots, rapid fire at 25 yards (four 5-shot strings, 10 seconds per string), and the National Match Course (10-shots slow fire at 50 yards, 10-shots timed fire (two 5-shot strings), and 10-shot strings (two 5-shot strings). This match consists of 90 shots for a possible aggregate total of 900 points. For a 2700 aggregate this match is fired once with each gun: .22 caliber rimfire, center fire, and .45 caliber. Many match programs call for only one or two guns, that is a 900 or 1800 aggregate.
Most indoor tournaments are fired with .22 caliber rimfire only for a 900 aggregate. However, some indoor matches use all guns for a complete 2700 aggregate.


http://competitions.nra.org/how-to-get-started/conventional-pistol-competition.aspx




My question: How does the National Match Course differ from the other courses?  The National Match Course uses 10 shots whereas the other course uses 20.  Is everything else the same?  The distance, target size and such?  Are you putting 20 holes in the first set of targets, and only 10 in each target for the National Match Course?

I have yet to shoot an event outside of the 22 league I've shot at my club the past 4 years.  I am able to hit a target with my .45 now though, so I'm looking forward to trying.  I would like to get an NRA rating just to say I have it.

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by LenV on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:24 am

I guess it is kind of confusing and that target I just posted on your other question would confuse you more. Targets are scored and repaired (holes covered) after every 10 rounds. We shoot the NMC (National Match Course) right after the slow fire match so were not moving our targets back and forth. Targets like I posted on your repair center question would never be fired in a match. That was practice only. Why waste a practice target till it is good and dead? Rhetorical question. Smile
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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by AndyLueck on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:41 am

So do you shoot 3 targets then, 2 for the first 20 shots, then another target for the 10 into NMC?

Do you switch guns next and fire slow again?  Or do you finish the other 2 courses of fire with the same gun?

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by CR10X on Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:45 am

OK, from your questions, it seems you have bundled up a lot of different thoughts here, but lets see if this helps. (The best way is generally just watching a match, but some don't have that option and that's OK.  And the Rule book is somewhat lacking in a general example of all the Matches shot at a Tournament since there can be a variety of combinations. The Match Program is supposed to take care of that.)  Anyway, here goes.  

First, scoring is generally done after 10 rounds.

Second:
A Slow Fire Match is 20 Shots in 2 strings of 10 shots each.
A National Match Course is 3 Stages, Slow Fire Stage of 10 shots in 10 minutes; Timed Fire Stage of 2 strings of 5 shots in 20 seconds and Rapid Fire Stage of 2 strings of 5 shots each in 10 seconds.
A Time Fire Match is 4 strings of 5 shots each in 20 seconds.
A Rapid Fire Match is 4 strings of 5 shots each in 10 seconds.

There are generally 4 Matches in each Aggregate (gun) Match (.22, CF and .45).  You may only change guns between each Match, but have to meet the caliber requirements.  Therefore you could shoot a Free Pistol or Single Action revolver for a Slow Fire Match, BUT if you shot those for the Slow Fire Stage of the National Match Course you would also have to shoot them for the Timed and Rapid Fire Stages. 

When you go to a tournament, the match director calling the line should have a script and tell the shooters what match they are shooting, the time and the rounds required for that target.  Some give more complete commands than others, but in general Slow Fire is 10 rounds in 10 minutes at the shooters discretion on how many to load; Timed Fire and Rapid fire are in 20 seconds or 10 seconds respectively and the competitor may not load more than 5 rounds (I would suggest not loading less either!). Outdoor scoring is generally done after 10 rounds (some indoor may be scored after 5 rounds.)

A quick review of the rule book will explain the National Match Course:  

National Match Course 
                              Time per 10 
Range    Type Fire      Shot String      Strings      Target 
50 yds    Slow           10 minutes          1            B-6    (= 10 shots) 

                               Time per 5 
Range      Type Fire     Shot String       Strings      Target 
25 yds      Timed         20 seconds          2            B-8    (= 10 shots)
25 yds      Rapid          10 seconds          2            B-8    (= 10 shots) 

Since the National Match course is fired on 3 targets of 2 different types within 3 different time periods, each scored string is called a Stage, as in the "Slow Fire Stage of the .22 National Match Course" which would be 10 shots slow fire in 10 minutes. The Timed Fire Stage is the 2 - 5 shot Timed Fire strings and so on for the Rapid Fire Stage.  Since the scores are added up for a total of the 3 - ten shot strings, the National Match Course is a 30 shot match.  Slow Fire, Timed Fire and Rapid Fire Matches are 20 shot matches. 

A match program will usually look something like this:

Match #1: .22 cal. Slow Fire, 20 shots, 50 yards.
Match #2: .22 cal. National Match Course, 30 shots, 50 & 25 yds.
Match #3: .22 cal. Timed Fire, 20 shots, 25 yards
Match #4: .22 cal. Rapid Fire, 20 shots, 25 yards.
Match #5: .22 cal. Aggregate of Matches 1 - 4.   90 shots - 900 points

Match #6: Center Fire Slow Fire, 20 shots, 50 yards
Match #7: Center Fire National Match Course, 30 shots, 50 & 25 yds.
Match #8: Center Fire Timed Fire, 20 shots, 25 yards.
Match #9: Center Fire Rapid Fire, 20 shots, 25 yards.
Match #10: Center Fire Aggregate of Matches 6 - 9.  90 shots - 900 points

Match #11: .45 cal. Slow Fire, 20 shots, 50 yards
Match #12: .45 cal. National Match Course, 30 shots, 50 & 25 yds.
Match #13: .45 cal. Timed Fire, 20 shots, 25 yards
Match #14: .45 cal. Rapid Fire, 20 shots, 25 yards.
Match #15: .45 cal. Aggregate of Matches 11 - 14.   90 shots - 900 points 

Match #16: Grand Aggregate of Matches 5, 10 and 15. 270 shots - 2700 points

NOTE: Targets used for the 25 yard rapid or timed fire will be B-8(P) paper and B-8(C) repair center.  Targets used for the 50 yard will be B-6(P) paper and B-6(C) repair center.

Any if you misunderstand anything, it's probably my bad because I didn't explain it well enough.  Just let me know and I'll try to help.

Cecil


Last edited by CR10X on Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by orpheoet on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:04 am

Speaking for myself I was so confused before the first match I shot I decided to just go and shoot the match. As it turns out Bullseye shooters are a very friendly and helpful group of people, at least around here. Once you've shot a few it'll all make sense. Until then pay attention, and watch what everyone else is doing.
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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by Magload on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:50 am

orpheoet wrote:Speaking for myself I was so confused before the first match I shot I decided to just go and shoot the match. As it turns out Bullseye shooters are a very friendly and helpful group of people, at least around here. Once you've shot a few it'll all make sense. Until then pay attention, and watch what everyone else is doing.
Same here and to make it even worst it was a Club Shoot andthey change the 10 minutes to 5 minutes I guess to speed it up a little.  They shoot the Slow at 25yds and the Timer/rapid at 15yds.  Another thing that made it hard for me is I have very bad hearing and even with my hearing aids in and ear protection on and the amp turned up in the ear muffs I had a hard time hearing what was said.  I think next month I will slip one side off my ear till the Read on the right command.  Last time, my first, I just kind of watched the guy beside me.  Great way to maintain constration, not.  Don
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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by AndyLueck on Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:01 pm

Thanks Cecil.  I agree that regardless I would probably just go shoot it and figure it out.  I just thought that I would try to ask the question to understand.  At first I wasn't sure where 2700 came from when you're shooting 3 guns, but between the regular courses of fire and the NMC, you're sort of doing it twice.  So I thought I'd try to get a little clarification.

I appreciate everyone's help.

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by bdas on Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:53 pm

What I tell first timers is... you have to be able to do 3 things... (1) ten shots in 10 min (slow fire), (2) 5 shots in 20 seconds (timed fire), and (3) 5 shots in 10 seconds (rapid fire).  The whole tournament is composed of just those 3 things, over and over... maybe with different guns, maybe with different targets, and maybe at different distances, but just those 3 things.

You almost always shoot 10 shots at each paper target, and score the target after all ten of those rounds have been shot.  For slow fire, you score after the 10 shots in 10 min.  For timed and rapid, you score after 2 strings of 5 shots (for a total of 10 shots) at one paper target.  If you need to score after only 5 shots, it will be obvious... just score when everybody else is scoring.

Most first timers are just as nervous about scoring as they are about shooting.  You will score someone else's target, and someone else will score yours.  Just score the target as best you can.  If the shooter disagrees with your scoring, they will talk to you about (nicely), and if the two of you cannot agree, a jury will decide.  Your job is simply to score it the way you see it.  Score first, then check your target.  Don't pull your target down unless/until you agree with the shot values the scorer has recorded for your target.  If you disagree with the score you were given, talk to the scorer, but be nice; it was probably a simple, honest mistake.  Also, don't worry about doing the math correctly, only the list of shot values matters during the match.  The math can be figured out (or fixed) later.

If you have an alibi (i.e. a gun, ammo, or target malfunction, or any other condition/situation that prevents you from shooting safely) during timed or rapid fire... (1) Safety first, keep the gun pointed down range and take your finger off the trigger, (2) Do not try to fix it until the RSO has looked at it, to determine if it's an acceptable alibi or not, (3) While the others are shooting, just put your hand up and wait for the match director to ask if there are any alibis.  As for shooting the alibi string, they will tell you what to do and when, just follow their instructions.  In slow fire, you should try to fix your gun/ammo problem on your own, and continue firing your 10 shots in 10 min, but if it's a time-consuming problem, let the RSO know, and they will give you extra time.  You can only have one alibi per "match", but that can get confusing, so don't sweat it for your first time (this could conceivably hurt your score a little, but you probably shouldn't be too concerned with your score for your first tournament... if you're having multiple alibis per match, you should be much more concerned about the fact that your gun/ammo is not working reliably).

Bring 2 magazines for each gun you are using, and load 5 rounds into each of them after firing, but before scoring.  Once slow fire has begun, you can load the second mag at your discretion, but for the start of slow fire, and for all strings of timed and rapid fire, do not insert the magazine into the gun until the command to load has been given.  The "load" command means make your gun ready to fire, so that is the time to insert the magazine, rack the slide, and disable any safeties, etc.

Between the "line is safe" command given before going down to score, and the "shooters to the line" command to begin the process for the next string, you cannot touch your gun.  You can touch (and insert ammo into) your magazines, but you cannot touch the gun, or anything attached to the gun (i.e. you cannot adjust your sights or be putting oil on your gun, etc.).  If you need extra time to touch your gun, such as to adjust your sights or replace your red dot battery, ask the RSO, and they will give you time to do so when it is safe to do so.

Bring 100 rounds of ammo for each 90-round section.  For a 2700, that means 100 round of 22, 100 rounds for your centerfire gun, and 100 rounds for your 45.  That allows for a couple alibi strings per gun.  If there are other extra matches (such as a "team" match or "fun" match), bring additional ammo for those, too.  The tournament bulletin will tell you about extra matches and how many rounds they are.

Aside from the obvious things (guns, ammo, ear and eye protection), you need a pen or pencil, an empty chamber indicator flag, a stapler, 120+ staples, target pasters (i.e. a roll of masking tape), drinks, and snacks (there will be food/water/bio breaks between guns).  The range will provide the targets.  It's best if you have a small clipboard, too, so you can write on the score card legibly.  A spotting scope or binoculars can be helpful, but is not required.  Likewise with a brass catcher; it's helpful (and courteous if your brass would be hitting the shooter next to you), but it's not required.  Things like tools, oil, ramrod, extra battery for your red dot, and so on, are nice to have, but as a first timer, in a pinch you can probably borrow those items from other shooters.

If you're not sure what string you're about to shoot, or which target to put up, or whether or not you can touch your gun right now, just ask. Most bullseye shooters are very nice to newbies (we want you to come back and keep shooting bullseye with us; otherwise, our sport will die).

When you are registering before the match, don't be afraid to tell the match directors and/or RSO folks that this is your first match.  That way, they know to keep an eye on you, and help you out.  They can do little things, like double-check that you put up the correct target, remind you which string is next, remind you to adjust your sights for distance changes, explain the alibi process in detail (if you have an alibi), or help you with the nuances of scoring procedures (like scoring alibi strings or skidders), etc.

Otherwise, just watch what everyone else is doing, listen to the match director, don't talk or do distracting stuff while others are shooting, and don't be afraid to ask questions (when no one is shooting).  Oh, and if you're not too nervous to do so... HAVE FUN!


Last edited by bdas on Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:44 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Thought of more stuff to add. Corrected the description of slow fire alibis.)

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by Magload on Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:11 pm

That is the best write up I have seen.  I wish I had read it before my first match this month.  I was a nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full chairs. Thank you.  I am glad the OP asked this question.  Don
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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by KenO on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:09 pm

I always check the score sheet to confirm which match is next. Everything is in order on the score sheets at all the clubs I've shot at. When you fill in the score for whoever you are scoring for, take a look at whats next. Cant go wrong.

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by suzcarter on Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:49 pm

Magload wrote:
orpheoet wrote:Speaking for myself I was so confused before the first match I shot I decided to just go and shoot the match. As it turns out Bullseye shooters are a very friendly and helpful group of people, at least around here. Once you've shot a few it'll all make sense. Until then pay attention, and watch what everyone else is doing.
Same here and to make it even worst it was a Club Shoot andthey change the 10 minutes to 5 minutes I guess to speed it up a little.  They shoot the Slow at 25yds and the Timer/rapid at 15yds.  Another thing that made it hard for me is I have very bad hearing and even with my hearing aids in and ear protection on and the amp turned up in the ear muffs I had a hard time hearing what was said.  I think next month I will slip one side off my ear till the Read on the right command.  Last time, my first, I just kind of watched the guy beside me.  Great way to maintain constration, not.  Don
Hey Don, it was great to have you at the last club match.  I'm sorry it was confusing.  Sometimes it is easier for people new to bullseye to try the shorter distances first.  50 yards can be a little intimidating.  I hope you make it out to the next one.  I didn't get a chance to say hi, but I will at the next one!  Sue

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by Aprilian on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:07 pm

Bdas, great write-up!   I just shared it with three guys who help new shooters.
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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by Magload on Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:42 pm

suzcarter wrote:
Magload wrote:
orpheoet wrote:Speaking for myself I was so confused before the first match I shot I decided to just go and shoot the match. As it turns out Bullseye shooters are a very friendly and helpful group of people, at least around here. Once you've shot a few it'll all make sense. Until then pay attention, and watch what everyone else is doing.
Same here and to make it even worst it was a Club Shoot andthey change the 10 minutes to 5 minutes I guess to speed it up a little.  They shoot the Slow at 25yds and the Timer/rapid at 15yds.  Another thing that made it hard for me is I have very bad hearing and even with my hearing aids in and ear protection on and the amp turned up in the ear muffs I had a hard time hearing what was said.  I think next month I will slip one side off my ear till the Read on the right command.  Last time, my first, I just kind of watched the guy beside me.  Great way to maintain constration, not.  Don
Hey Don, it was great to have you at the last club match.  I'm sorry it was confusing.  Sometimes it is easier for people new to bullseye to try the shorter distances first.  50 yards can be a little intimidating.  I hope you make it out to the next one.  I didn't get a chance to say hi, but I will at the next one!  Sue
Sue I enjoyed the part of the match I shot.  I am glad to see you and Ted on this forum.  I was starting to think I was the only one that shoot at Gateway on this forum.  I will be at the next Club shoot I think the Dixie shoot coming up might be just a little to much for me now.  Don
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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by davekp on Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:31 am

Bdas is incorrect about alibis . Alibis are allowed in slow fire. Also, one each in slowfire, Timed fire, and Rapid fire. NMC is different: one alibi for slow fire target, and one for timed and rapid targets combined.
Also, I think the shooter should maintain trigger pressure in the event of a misfire, not release it. That way, when the range officer checks, he can confirm the trigger was pulled, and the pistol did not fire. If you release the trigger and the range officer attempts to fire the pistol and it fires, no alibi allowed.

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Re: A question about a 2700

Post by bdas on Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:27 pm

davekp wrote:Bdas is incorrect about alibis . Alibis are allowed in slow fire. Also, one each in slowfire, Timed fire, and Rapid fire. NMC is different: one alibi for slow fire target, and one for timed and rapid targets combined.
Also, I think the shooter should maintain trigger pressure in the event of a misfire, not release it. That way, when the range officer checks, he can confirm the trigger was pulled, and the pistol did not fire. If you release the trigger and the range officer attempts to fire the pistol and it fires, no alibi allowed.

Thank you for correcting that.  I did not know that gun/ammo type alibis were allowed in slow fire (I thought only range alibis were allowed in slow fire). I've never heard a match director ask if there were any alibis in slow fire.

Please school me on slow fire alibis. Regarding slow fire alibis, the rule book (in rule 10.9) says "Additional time may be allowed any competitor, equal to the time lost because of the defective cartridge, disabled pistol or malfunction, if the Range Officer has been notified at the time of the malfunction. (For refiring privileges 21 see Rule 9.14)."  How do they determine how much time you lost? If you're getting extra time to finish your slow fire due to alibis, when/why would you get a refire in slow fire?  

Rule 9.14 talks about stuff like you can only have one score per match, and you can only have one refire per match, but I don't see anything in it about slow fire refire privileges.  It does say  "(d) Refires of slow fire refires are to be fired immediately after the relay in which the refire occurred."  I read that to mean that you have to do your slow fire refires immediately after normal slow fire time is done, but it doesn't explain under what circumstances you might get a refire in slow fire.  (If they are using the word "refire" to refer to the extra time to complete the 10 original slow fire shots, that seems like an exceedingly poor choice of words.)  

So, which is it... do you just get extra time to complete your 10 shots, or do you get to refire (all or part or) the slow fire match?


As for maintaining trigger pressure after a misfire, that's an interesting point about not releasing it to confirm that the trigger was pulled (although I bet you could fake that on a lot of pistols).  It's not something that I'd tell a first timer to worry about, but interesting nonetheless.

Thanks,
Dave

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