38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

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38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/13/2017, 8:50 pm

This is my first time loading HBWCs and my first loads for the Model 52.  I believe I read the bullets should be seated flush with the case for this gun and my loading manual says 1.160" COL.  Well if I don't but the calibers across the button on the bullet I got them at 1.160"  So I think I am ok with that.  My question is crimping them.  I am using a Lee Factory Crimp die how much crimp do I need?  I can't plunk test them as the gun is not here yet I just want some ammo ready when I pick the gun up Saturday hopefully. Don


Last edited by Magload on 4/14/2017, 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Wobbley on 4/13/2017, 8:54 pm

Just enough to roll the edge over.  Then try it in yourvpistol.  If they don't feed then crimp a little more until they do.  I've always used the crimp in the RCBS die.

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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by KenO on 4/14/2017, 6:28 pm

I prefer the case gages to check rounds. I have one each for the .45 and .38, made by Dillon, but there are other makers out there.

I check every round as I take it out of the Dillon bin, and put them in the boxes. The case gages seem tighter than a barrel, if they go into the gauge, they surly will chamber. Don't have to tear a gun down just to check ammo. https://www.dillonprecision.com/dillon-handgun-case-gauges_8_3_25548.html

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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 6:38 pm

KenO wrote:I prefer the case gages to check rounds. I have one each for the .45 and .38, made by Dillon, but there are other makers out there.

I check every round as I take it out of the Dillon bin, and put them in the boxes. The case gages seem tighter than a barrel, if they go into the gauge, they surly will chamber. Don't have to tear a gun down just to check ammo. https://www.dillonprecision.com/dillon-handgun-case-gauges_8_3_25548.html
I have a 9mm case gage from Shooter Supply and rounds that would pass just fine in the gage or plunk in any of my other 9mm pistols will not chamber in my 9mm SA RO.  SC said send it back they would fix the tight chamber as they knew about it but the gun shoots so good I didn't want them messing with it.  I bought a Lee Glock Buster and their cheap press and they feed fine.  You still have to re plunk test them as a few rounds have to go through twice.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Virgil Kane on 4/14/2017, 7:15 pm

If you don't seat the WC's flush the nose/lip of the bullet will hang up on the front of the magazine and you will get FTF after the first round is fired ( if you can get them into the magazine in the first place)

I trim all my 38 Special brass to be used in my M-52 to .010"  (ten thousandths of an inch)  LESS than minimum length, seat flush to the case mouth and crimp to .372. Have never had a alibi doing it this way.

If you are shooting button nose WC the button will hang up on the front of the magazine in a M-52. The nose of wadcutters shot in the M-52 has to be flat.


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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 7:47 pm

Virgil Kane wrote:If you don't seat the WC's flush the nose/lip of the bullet will hang up on the front of the magazine and you will get FTF after the first round is fired ( if you can get them into the magazine in the first place)

I trim all my 38 Special brass to be used in my M-52 to .010"  (ten thousandths of an inch)  LESS than minimum length, seat flush to the case mouth and crimp to .372. Have never had a alibi doing it this way.

If you are shooting button nose WC the button will hang up on the front of the magazine in a M-52. The nose of wadcutters shot in the M-52 has to be flat.


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Thanks Virgil that info is what I needed.  Guess this box of 500 Zero HBWCs I just bought will have to be shot in the GP 100.  I have about a 1000 X Treme 148 Plated DEWC I guess I can use.  Have not had mush lusk with plated bullets in BE.  They shoot fine at the SL but look like a shotgun pattern at the LL and that is with a RR.  Well I guess it is just a new learning experience which I enjoy anyway.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by LenV on 4/14/2017, 7:51 pm

These are new Starline cases. I don't do anything to the brass. I seat the bullet just enough past the case that the roll crimp (same as I use for my RN bullets) has just enough lead to bite on. These are Magnus HBWC.
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 8:03 pm

I am running 2.8gr of BE and my Hornady manual shows that to be just below Max.  It shows starting to be 2.1.  Can I drop it down that far and still function with the Matchdot II mounted on the slide?

i guess I will just have to work with this when I pick up the gun tomorrow.  I don't have the mount yet anyway.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by LenV on 4/14/2017, 8:16 pm

Don, I don't think even 2.8 will work with a Matchdot II on the rail. I have a Holosun mounted on mine with 2.8. I had a frame mounted Matchdot but totally different critters. What kind of dovetail mount do you have coming that will let you use a full size scope?
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by C.Perkins on 4/14/2017, 8:46 pm

Whoa;Stop;Halt.

You have received misguided information or misinterpretation of said information.

First off you can shoot any 148gr LHBWC or DEWC in an M52, button nosed or not; period.
You must conclude what the COL is for the magazines you have.
COL = cartridge overall length, not base of cartridge to shoulder but base of cartridge to nose.

My notes state that the maximum COL for my M52 magazines must measure 1.170" or less.
If all five rounds load into the magazine and do not hang up while cycling then they will feed into the pistol.

My notebook is out in the shop, but I trim my once fired brass .020" and seat so the shoulder is .010"-.020" above the case and crimp.
This gives me my .020" proud button nose on my now obsolete Remingtons to function fine.

2.8gr of BE is good, 2.1gr will be a single shot pistol.
The manuals use a fixed barrel/revolver setup.
Keep that in your equation.

If you want to discuss the loading and use of the M52 in more detail, PM me and we will talk on the phone.
I am still a working man at 50+ hours a week but still have time to talk shop.

Clarence
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 8:59 pm

LenV wrote:Don, I don't think even 2.8 will work with a Matchdot II on the rail. I have a Holosun mounted on mine with 2.8. I had a frame mounted Matchdot but totally different critters. What kind of dovetail mount do you have coming that will let you use a full size scope?
I have a BME S&W-52-RR on order.  I can use a EGW BOMAR Doctors mount I have for now.  i am sure I have a dot that will fit it some where around here.  

Question about your frame mount.  It says it has to be removed to remove the slide is that because the rear sight won't clear under it?  The gun I bought the rear site is missing all it's parts except the base.   probably why i won the auction but I don't use irons anyway and a model 41 site will fit it if it did.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by C.Perkins on 4/14/2017, 9:03 pm

It is because the safety lever will not pass through it.
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 9:17 pm

C.Perkins wrote:Whoa;Stop;Halt.

You have received misguided information or misinterpretation of said information.

First off you can shoot any 148gr LHBWC or DEWC in an M52, button nosed or not; period.
You must conclude what the COL is for the magazines you have.
COL = cartridge overall length, not base of cartridge to shoulder but base of cartridge to nose.

My notes state that the maximum COL for my M52 magazines must measure 1.170" or less.
If all five rounds load into the magazine and do not hang up while cycling then they will feed into the pistol.

My notebook is out in the shop, but I trim my once fired brass .020" and seat so the shoulder is .010"-.020" above the case and crimp.
This gives me my .020" proud button nose on my now obsolete Remingtons to function fine.

2.8gr of BE is good, 2.1gr will be a single shot pistol.
The manuals use a fixed barrel/revolver setup.
Keep that in your equation.

If you want to discuss the loading and use of the M52 in more detail, PM me and we will talk on the phone.
I am still a working man at 50+ hours a week but still have time to talk shop.

Clarence
Clarence thanks for the offer to talk on the phone but my hearing is so bad I don't do well on the phone and just stick with email and text when I can.  I am not doing well with this forum tonight either as the last three responses I have typed and sent didn't post.  I wear some of the best hearing aids there is but my hearing has gotten worst the last few years.  Don't know if it is shooting indoors 5 days a week or just getting old.  I wear good ear muffs and lately ear plugs also but when people are shooting ARs in the other lanes it is still loud.  I am not going to complain because I shoot them also.  I have had people complain about my 357 mag.  

I pick up the gun tomorrow and once I have the mags I can work on COL.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by C.Perkins on 4/14/2017, 9:24 pm

Don;

Too bad we cannot talk.

Good luck with your M52 journey.

Clarence
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 4/14/2017, 9:37 pm

I'm assuming the first couple rounds will be non-functioning (no powder or primer).
It REALLY makes me nervous when a live round gets jammed somewhere.
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 9:52 pm

STEVE SAMELAK wrote:I'm assuming the first couple rounds will be non-functioning (no powder or primer).
It REALLY makes me nervous when a live round gets jammed somewhere.
Always I never attempt to cycle live rounds at home.  Not that i don't always point the muzzle in a safe direction but i don't want the neighbors calling the law when they hear a gun shot.  I make up a mag full of dummies and i have this stuff from Brownell's that turn brass black making them easy to ID.  You can plunk them all you want in the barrel but that doesn't mean they are going to feed.  

But then thanks for the heads up on safety everyone needs a reminder.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/14/2017, 9:56 pm

LenV wrote:Don, I don't think even 2.8 will work with a Matchdot II on the rail. I have a Holosun mounted on mine with 2.8. I had a frame mounted Matchdot but totally different critters. What kind of dovetail mount do you have coming that will let you use a full size scope?
BTW I found the EGW BOMAR adapter and my Fastfire III fits right on it.  The Fastfire isn't my pick for a BE gun but at least I will be able to aim with it.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by LenV on 4/14/2017, 11:29 pm

Don, I had the RR mount on my 952 and it was nothing but a headache. There wasn't much room between the rings to get the 1" dot to fit and the MDII is even longer in the body area. The RR on the 952 also moved around on me. The anti vibration screw may stop vibration but it does not lock the front of the base in place. Part 2. I used the Leupold frame mount and you could remove the slide past the mount since it mounts on the right side. I would not recommend the Leupold to anyone that had a great finish on their 52. I found it abrasive to the bluing.



What the Leupold does to finish
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Virgil Kane on 4/15/2017, 7:18 am

C.Perkins wrote:Whoa;Stop;Halt.

You have received misguided information or misinterpretation of said information.

First off you can shoot any 148gr LHBWC or DEWC in an M52, button nosed or not; period.
You must conclude what the COL is for the magazines you have.
COL = cartridge overall length, not base of cartridge to shoulder but base of cartridge to nose.

My notes state that the maximum COL for my M52 magazines must measure 1.170" or less.
If all five rounds load into the magazine and do not hang up while cycling then they will feed into the pistol.

My notebook is out in the shop, but I trim my once fired brass .020" and seat so the shoulder is .010"-.020" above the case and crimp.
This gives me my .020" proud button nose on my now obsolete Remingtons to function fine.

.


Well I guess it's what we call button nose.  Although the nose of the Remintons have a very small button on them it's not what I would call button nose although you may. 

I was talking about the H&G #50 button nose mold and similar shaped button nose WC's.  I have both the H&G mould and the Magnus 502's and neither will fit in the magazine when seated to the shoulder of the bullet even with me trimming the case back .010 under minimum

  


These will not fit in my magazines and I haven't found a 52 magazine that they will work in without extensive reductions to the brass

I wouldn't consider it misguided information. Just a difference in opinion on what we call a button nose WC

With my 52 I have a 30mm Ultra Dot mounted on a BME mount.  I have shot down to 2.5 of BE but did have a few FTF, FTE so I stick with 2.8 of BE and have not had a hiccup with this load and a slide mounted 30mm Ultra Dot

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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by C.Perkins on 4/15/2017, 8:48 am

Virgil;
Now that is a horse of a different color.
I would never try to load those in an M52, only revolvers.
And yes, they are a true button nosed LWC.
I still call it a button on the Remingtons cause if loaded a tad to long, the button will scrape and cause issues in the M52 magazines.

The reason I interjected was that I did not think the Zero's had the true button on them and the OP was not going to use them in the M52 because of that reason, when I believed they are good to go.

Glad we got onto the same page here.

Have a safe Easter weekend.

Clarence
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Virgil Kane on 4/15/2017, 8:56 am

Clarence,

I ran out of the Remington WC's last year and can't find anymore.  To bad because I think they were THEE best although somewhat messy. 
We're on the same page, just that sometimes the written word can be misleading but not intended that way.  Can't beat talking face to face.

You have a Happy Easter. Smile

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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/15/2017, 9:37 am

Yes I looked at the Zero's again and what I thought was the button is recessed and when loaded flush with the case it does not stick past the brass. My gun is out for delivery so I should be headed to the range soon to pick it up.
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/15/2017, 11:56 am

LenV wrote:Don, I had the RR mount on my 952 and it was nothing but a headache. There wasn't much room between the rings to get the 1" dot to fit and the MDII is even longer in the body area. The RR on the 952 also moved around on me. The anti vibration screw may stop vibration but it does not lock the front of the base in place. Part 2. I used the Leupold frame mount and you could remove the slide past the mount since it mounts on the right side. I would not recommend the Leupold to anyone that had a great finish on their 52. I found it abrasive to the bluing.



What the Leupold does to finish


This gun is missing the blueing in the very same spot.  Suspect it had the same mount.  I may end up using that amount if I find one. Going to try these other mounts first.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by Magload on 4/15/2017, 11:59 am

Oh BTW these loads fed just fine.  No case trimming and seated flush.   Couldn't tell a lot how they shot it's hard to aim with out a read sight and boy that trigger is smooth and sensitive.  Getting ready to measure it and put the EGW mount on.  Don
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

Post by LenV on 4/15/2017, 12:22 pm

Let me know if you need a Leupold mount. Not putting mine back on.

Len
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Re: 38 SPL 148gr Zero HBWC

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