Can we talk Wobble?

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Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/16/2017, 10:49 am

If my reading and understanding of what I read is right as long as your trigger breaks with in your wobble area that is what you want.  That way you can keep the trigger moving and not try to snatch the shot when the dot is on the X ring.  Because that is not where the dot is going to be when the bullet clears the barrel.  Now what I want to know is I been right so far is when you all are shooting clean targets your wobble is all in the 10 ring?  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Wobbley on 4/16/2017, 11:22 am

If your wobble is centered, which is a big if, there is a tendency for the shot to be closer to the center than when the trigger releases.  So there have been cleans shot where the wobble is slightly bigger than the 10 ring.  But it really is a matter of chance.  For the record, I've never shot a clean in competition but I have training targets that have more 10s than I thought I shot.

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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/16/2017, 11:53 am

Wobbley wrote:If your wobble is centered, which is a big if, there is a tendency for the shot to be closer to the center than when the trigger releases.  So there have been cleans shot where the wobble is slightly bigger than the 10 ring.  But it really is a matter of chance.  For the record, I've never shot a clean in competition but I have training targets that have more 10s than I thought I shot.

So you are saying it is possible to get the wobble down to 10 ring size or smaller?  Boy I got a lot of work to do.  Just in the last week or so i have got it down to the black.  I have noticed that often when I get it even tighter I am wobbling around 9 o'clock on the black with part of the wobble into the white.  Most of my misses are at 8 ring 9 to 11 o'clock.  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jack H on 4/16/2017, 11:53 am

Sight alignment is more important than wobble.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Tim:H11 on 4/16/2017, 11:56 am

I'm not a bullseye coach or instructor. So I'll try to share what works for me in the best way that I can in hopes that it helps. 

In sustained fire, I watch the target. While I'm looking at the target I'm applying pressure to the trigger. During that time I'm making an effort to get the dot onto the center of the black and keep it there. It so happens for me that when it gets there the shot breaks. So in effect what I have going on is more of a red dot bouncing off the center of the black. You can start to snatch shots if trying to do this but if you do it means you're too slow on the trigger - so when you get to the center of the target it hasn't gone bang yet. So you rush it. And snatch a shot. 

Where I think some people get messed up or turned around is they recover quickly from the previous shot at the same speed be it time or rapid fire target. MY recovery is faster in rapid fire and slower in timed fire. This allows no difference in the amount of time the dot is seen over the target. So I'm not holding too long in timed fire and I'm not second guessing a shot or doing the old "start and stop - start and stop" dance. I just slow my recovery a little and slow the trigger press a little. 

The key is keep the trigger moving and if it hasn't gone bang when it hits center hold till it does. Just make sure you're not having to hold too long. It's a timing thing. It can be annoying to master and frustrating at times and I'm not perfect. I can't do it right all the time. That's where the 9's come from. Snatching a shot, holding too long, being too quick on the trigger and sending one off early or other issues associated with other aspects of the shot will happened from time to time. But recognizing what works and what works well and what a good string looks like is important. 

I approach slow fire differently.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by daflorc on 4/16/2017, 1:32 pm

I think you can train a reduction in wobble, but at the same time, I see some aged bullseye shooters on my league who either have shoulder problems or other physical impairments that may prevent that kind of increased ability at their age. For me, I'll be 33 next month, and just completed my first season on a 25 yard league. I regularly shoot the 3" 50 foot targets at 25 yards in practice, then in the matches I shoot the 6" bull. For me, it has helped my confidence and "I think" reduced the size of my wobble. Most of the time in practice now I can keep maybe 95% of the shots in the 3" bull now. Several times I'll shoot 30-50 rounds and keep almost all of them in that 3" bull. Now in matches, my scores for rim and center are almost always in the high 270's, and I am more frequently scoring in the low-mid 280's. Unfortunately I discovered reloading and red dots about halfway into the season, so I'll be starting next season as a sharpshooter and not an expert, though my scores for the last several months reflect expert level scores.

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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by SteveT on 4/17/2017, 10:32 am

I submit the following as being as close to "truths" as we can find in pistol shooting.

  1. Your wobble area is smaller than you think it is
  2. Almost all shooters disturb the shot far more when pulling the trigger
  3. You can learn to make the gun go off when your wobble area is minimized
  4. Wobble area can be reduced over time

Points 1 & 2 above are the foundations of the "surprise break" theory of pistol shooting. By smoothly pulling the trigger without disturbing the gun most shooters will score pretty well. Even shooters with a large wobble area. Pretty much all Tyro, Marksman and Sharpshooters, most, Experts and many Masters (me included) will improve their score more by developing a smooth trigger pull than any other change to in their shooting technique.

I highly recommend holding a laser pointer on a target. You may be amazed at the small area the dot actually traverses. This is how still you can hold your arm. If a shot lands significantly outside that area, you are disturbing the hold by anticipation, grip errors or, most likely, trigger error. I think when we see the outer edge of the dot touching a scoring ring we perceive it to be "outside the ring" but in reality the bullet will score higher.

It is common to have a tighter hold for short periods then larger excursions. Again, we perceive the larger excursions to be our hold area, but in reality if we train ourselves to recognize the hold settling down and initiate the trigger to go off during these shorter periods we can score significantly better. If someone has a very large hold they can at least trigger the gun as the dot is moving towards the center and have a higher probability of hitting near the center.

The problem with the above scenarios is that trying to make the gun go off at a particular time encourages the shooter to snatch or jerk the trigger. We must learn to pull the trigger as fast as we can without disturbing the gun. Then we must have the testicular fortitude to do that even though the sight picture is not perfect. To me that is the wonderful challenge of our sport and the thing that keeps me interested. How do we trick ourselves into doing the right thing in that split second when our instincts try to do something different.

Wobble area can be reduced by holding exercises and strength training, however you want to build control and endurance, so slow movements, low weight and high number of repetitions is the key. Body building, high strength, "burst" movements will not help and may well hurt your hold stability. You don't want to hold much more than the weight of the gun, generally 2-3 lbs. I have a magazine that has 2 lead bullets pressed into each of 7 cases so it is a little heavier than the regular gun. In the gym I use 3 lbs for holding exercises. I hold the weight (or gun) out in firing position for 30 seconds alternating hands to keep things balanced and to give my firing arm a chance to rest. Hold the weight as steady as possible, just as when you are shooting. At the gym I combine holding exercises with balance by standing on a BOSU. At home I don't have one, sometimes I stand on one leg while holding, usually I just stand there.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/17/2017, 11:24 am

I have a torn labrum (bicep attachment to shoulder). I have lots of wobble as a result. To shoot 10 good SF shots requires lifting pistol 20-25 x per SF string. I work very hard for my 10's. So I do have to accept my wobble area to shoot my shots. But I can tell pretty quick if I should abort the shot. My shot plan requires aggressive controlled trigger squeeze to compensate for the narrow window that my hold is half decent. My trigger control is excellent which is a big plus since my hold sucks. I broke 2600 last match so even with the struggle isn't too bad. So I guess what I'm trying to say is actually accept your wobble/movement and continuously squeeze the trigger. Don't hold too long and abort when it's not right. SF requires discipline. Be disciplined. Don't accept mediocre and force shots. Go by your shot plan and when somethings not quite right start over. Also if you can call your shots it's a big plus. For example; if I shoot a straight in 8 that was called an 8 and broke cleanly there, it's a good shot. We're human and don't always shoot 10's because we can't always hold 10 ring. Now if my red dot went flying out of the X ring into the 8 ring when shot broke, that would be a poor shot that I was able to call and attribute most likely to poor trigger control. So it's constant analysis from shot to shot. Learn to know what a 10 looks like and feels like when shooting. It makes it easier to replicate.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by CR10X on 4/17/2017, 3:51 pm

If my reading and understanding of what I read is right as long as your trigger breaks with in your wobble area that is what you want.  That way you can keep the trigger moving and not try to snatch the shot when the dot is on the X ring.  Because that is not where the dot is going to be when the bullet clears the barrel.  Now what I want to know is I been right so far is when you all are shooting clean targets your wobble is all in the 10 ring?  Don

To answer your question for me, No.   My wobble is not all in the 10 ring shooting clean targets (SF, TF or RF).  The wobble will start out slightly larger and then get smaller and more centered, then begin to get larger again as time passes.  


The goal for open sights is perfect alignment, and since I use sub six hold I couldn't even tell you what the 10 ring wobble looks like.  I can tell you what the shots looked like (calling) and when the minimum wobble occurred (sometimes before the shot was completed unfortunately).  Open sights can really tell you how your timing is going since the good shots will cluster in the middle and those that are held too long will look like the rest of the solar system orbiting the sun. 


So I train to get the trigger / shot completed during the expected minimum wobble time for slow fire (open or dot sight).  I probably should not complete as many slow fire shots as I do, and that's what I'm training on now. 


For timed and rapid fire, the shot is completed (smoothly and not disturbing the wobble / alignment) as the sights or dot is headed towards and settling into the desired aiming area for timed and rapid fire.   Some days, it just drops right back into position.  Other days, I seem to have to help "drive it" to the center all the while chanting "Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, Trigger, Trigger" (hopefully to myself). 


To answer what I think is your real question, no you do not need a 10 ring hold all the time to shoot 10's or clean targets.  You do need a shot process that completes the shot at the minimum wobble area and time.  Timely, smoothly and with confidence is the feeling as you see everything that is happening is the goal. Then repeat the good ones.


Don't know if this is helping or confusing, but that's the best I can explain it for now. Everyone has made great suggestions so far, just try to see what makes sense for you.


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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by gregbenner on 4/20/2017, 11:14 am

I consistently hear the phrase "keep the trigger moving".  

However, a couple comments above say   "key is keep the trigger moving and if it hasn't gone bang when it hits center hold till it does".  or   "continuously squeeze the trigger. Don't hold too long and abort when it's not right."


What confuses me a bit is the apparent dichotomy between holding off when the wobble take you out of the target area (be it the black, or the 10) and keeping the tigger moving?


Last edited by gregbenner on 4/20/2017, 1:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/20/2017, 11:54 am

Greg I am with you on this.  My KC rolling trigger doesn't roll very long and if I don't wait till I am in the black it breaks when where I don't want the shot to go.  If I abort the shot till it feels right it might take all day to shoot a 10 shot string.  I do agree when I force a shot it probably is not going to be good.  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/20/2017, 11:54 am

If you can't hold black (10 ring) abort shot. Try again! Keep trigger moving until shot breaks. So if your hold is only 9 ring you have to accept the fact you can only hold 9 ring area (wobble area). If you keep trigger moving and you are within your wobble area you will shoot 9's & 10's provided that your trigger pull is good. Steering dot back into target after moving out of target (bull) leads to many bad things to execute the shot. So we have rough aiming area when first settling into bull. Then we refine it as we settle. But all the while should be squeezing the trigger continuously. If something doesn't look right or feel right abort the shot and start over.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/20/2017, 12:14 pm

Jon I am doing something wrong then.  Saying keep the trigger moving does not seam to work with any of my BE guns.  I even bought two KC roll triggers so I could keep them moving.  Maybe the term should be keep increasing pressure till you reach the point the trigger breaks.  The only way I feel the trigger moving is shooting DA.  Even with DA I stage the trigger.  I don't doth you Masters and High Masters.  It is hard learning this by reading what to do with out show and tell.  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/20/2017, 12:32 pm

It's a lot more work in my opinion to shoot SF with a trigger that has a roll longer than short to barely medium. You'll have a tendency to vertical string shots and 2 group. Centered group and low group. There is only so much time to break a shot before are hold diminishes. So shots need to break sooner than later. Longer rolling triggers require really really good hold to shoot well in my opinion. The older we get the worse our hold gets. So I prefer a short roll that tells me I am squeezing the trigger and I know it will go bang soon! Longer rolls have tendency to go bang later than sooner and when we compensate for it the shots go off too soon. I've spent the last two weeks shooting long rolls and my groups are larger and I'm calling less shots good shots. So I don't know if that helps, but I would have those rolling triggers shortened. I believe it will really help you.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/20/2017, 1:10 pm

I guess I need to talk to KC and ask if these are long, med, or short triggers I bought from him.  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by bdas on 4/20/2017, 2:05 pm

gregbenner wrote:I consistently hear the phrase "keep the trigger moving".  

However, a couple comments above say   key is keep the trigger moving and if it hasn't gone bang when it hits center hold till it does.  or   "continuously squeeze the trigger. Don't hold too long and abort when it's not right."


What confuses me a bit is the apparent dichotomy between holding off when the wobble take you out of the target area (be it the black, or the 10) and keeping the tigger moving?

Greg, I think part of the confusion here is that sometimes people are talking about slow fire, and sometimes they are talking about sustained fire (timed & rapid).  In slow fire, if you get distracted, or you can't get your hold to settle in a reasonable amount of time, or the shot just doesn't feel "right", you should abort the shot, rather than forcing it.  But in sustained fire (especially rapid fire), you don't have the luxury of time to repeatedly abort shots.  You need to do the best you can in the time available.  In that case, you need to squeeze off the shot within your wobble area, even if your wobble hasn't settled to your liking.

Now, none of that is to suggest that you should pull the trigger halfway, stop, and then try to complete that trigger pull later.  That is almost universally considered to be a bad idea.  The most common result is that you try to "snatch" the shot when the sights are perceived to be re-aligned with the center of the target, but these end up as 6's because you're jerking/yanking the trigger and because your perception is a little behind reality, timing-wise.  Some people would consider this to be part of the "keep the trigger moving" mantra.  I think of it more as committing to the shot.  You just have to have faith that, if your trigger pull is good (smooth & straight back), the shot will end up in your wobble area, and most likely towards the middle of your wobble area, and that's good enough.

The other part of "keep the trigger moving" is getting back on the trigger as soon as possible after recoil of the previous shot.  Don't wait until you've re-aimed and then begin putting pressure on the trigger. That new pressure will almost certainly affect your aim (in a bad way).  But if you've started pressure on the trigger soon after recoil, and while you're aiming you continue to build pressure on the trigger, around the time that you've settled your wobble back on the center of the target, the still-continuously-building pressure on the trigger will fire the next round.  This dance, and the intricate timing it requires, takes lots of practice to achieve with any kind of consistency.  I've not yet achieved it, but from what I've read, the resulting effect is that you feel like you're continuously pulling and resetting the trigger throughout the 5-shot string.

As for reducing your wobble area, I mostly see people suggesting things like balancing exercises, strengthening exercises (grip strength, wrist curls, push ups, and core exercises), and holding practice (with or without dry firing).  And, of course, not doing silly stuff like drinking 2 extra cups of coffee before you go shooting.

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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by daflorc on 4/20/2017, 3:55 pm

Magload wrote:I guess I need to talk to KC and ask if these are long, med, or short triggers I bought from him.  Don
Hi Don, I've learned that KC only offers one roll trigger kit (hammer/sear) and that it feels differently in different guns. I have had 3 of his roll trigger sets - it feels short in a les baer, long in a range officer, long in a Rock River Arms, and jerky in a Ruger (my experiences, anyway).

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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/20/2017, 4:02 pm

Well mine is in a LB and the other in a Rem R1 frame used for my Nelson.  Both feel the same so it must be a short so I guess I won't blame my shooting on the trigger. Thanks  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Wobbley on 4/20/2017, 7:42 pm

Regarding the phrase "keep the trigger moving" it means different things at different stages.

For slow fire your wobble area begins to diminish at that point the trigger should be pulled and so long as your wobble does not leave your normal minimal wobble area, the trigger is continuously pulled to release the shot.  If the wobble degrades, abort the shot and start all over.

For sustained fire, once you've recovered to the point where the pistol is in the normal impact zone and is settling, the trigger pull starts and goes to completion.  Some use the trigger pull to aid in recovery but I've never been able to do that so I start the trigger as soon as I see the sights begin to settle in the black.  


Years ago, they used to train holding where you held up a pistol and some even added weights.  This trained the muscles to hold and you soon developed a minimal wobble.  You also leaned how YOU wobble and when it starts to settle.  That's when you should start the trigger pull and it should be completed before your hold degrades.  You'll find that your stance and grip play a huge role in your wobble.

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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/20/2017, 8:05 pm

High Masters, well 99% of them do not doing any type of holding drill. We dry fire and live fire.
We keep the trigger moving 90 plus % of the time. It's moving before we get in the black for SF and we keep squeezing without hesitation until the shot breaks.
For TF & RF we squeeze before the target turns and we never stop until the last shot is fired. So in the white or the black or above the entire target we are squeezing the trigger. 
And yes it takes practice Smile
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by john bickar on 4/20/2017, 9:57 pm

Jon Eulette wrote:High Masters, well 99% of them do not doing any type of holding drill. We dry fire and live fire.
We keep the trigger moving 90 plus % of the time. It's moving before we get in the black for SF and we keep squeezing without hesitation until the shot breaks.
For TF & RF we squeeze before the target turns and we never stop until the last shot is fired. So in the white or the black or above the entire target we are squeezing the trigger. 
And yes it takes practice Smile
Jon

Gotta break some eggs to make that omelette.

This is one of the most challenging concepts to communicate to developing shooters, and it is fundamentally critical to bullseye pistol.
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Aprilian on 4/21/2017, 9:18 am

I've been needing to ask this question for a couple of weeks.

There have been a lot of recent posts about squeezing as you lower the pistol into the black so the shot breaks as you center in the black (assuming you are using a dot).   Yet there have also been posts about knowing when your wobble is at the minimum point and timing your trigger pull to break the shot at minimum wobble.   I have always assumed wobble was talking about once the dot is centered on the bull and you are holding the pistol perfectly still in order to break the shot.  I took this idea away from the graph in the AMU workbook.

Here is the part I can't quite wrap my mind around.  If the pistol is moving as it enters the black and then goes off, the pistol is never still, so there is no way to time the shot to coincide with the minimum wobble.  What am I missing???????
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Magload on 4/21/2017, 9:49 am

Aprilian wrote:I've been needing to ask this question for a couple of weeks.

There have been a lot of recent posts about squeezing as you lower the pistol into the black so the shot breaks as you center in the black (assuming you are using a dot).   Yet there have also been posts about knowing when your wobble is at the minimum point and timing your trigger pull to break the shot at minimum wobble.   I have always assumed wobble was talking about once the dot is centered on the bull and you are holding the pistol perfectly still in order to break the shot.  I took this idea away from the graph in the AMU workbook.

Here is the part I can't quite wrap my mind around.  If the pistol is moving as it enters the black and then goes off, the pistol is never still, so there is no way to time the shot to coincide with the minimum wobble.  What am I missing???????
I am glad you asked that question as I tried the squeezing the trigger as I entered the black and trying to time the shot.  I guess it is my old reflexes but my shots are going off low.  I also read the time line in the army's training manual that show that around 3 seconds to 10 seconds is the least wobble there for I been moving the the dot into the black and starting my squeeze at about 2 seconds.  I am seeing the shot break and it is not where I would like it to break.  That is because my wobble is wobbling centered at 9 o'clock in the black.  Body alignment, grip or maybe just my poor aim.

I think I am going to start on the Progressive Method for Precision Pistol again.  Just couldn't get into shooting at a blank sheet of paper but now I can see way I need to do it.  Here again is the problem of learning only from a book and not having a good instructor.  If it wasn't for this forum and members willing to help this journey would be to hard for me.  Don
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jon Eulette on 4/21/2017, 10:47 am

Ian,
Wobble area is maximum arc or area of your hold. From lots of practice both dry & live we learn to know what our own wobble area is and that is our hold that we have to accept. Once we accept our hold we can consciously squeeze the trigger within that arc of movement. So when we settle into the target we already know what our acceptable hold is. It might be better on some days, but typically the same. So when I lower into the black and something doesn't feel right, in this case hold, I will abort the shot. When I lift to my maximum lift height, my hold starts there! Yes, my hold starts there! Too many shooters are lazy and just throw the gun out toward the target and shoot. Your hold starts at the lift. So about timing a shot.....leads to snatched, jerked, heeled shots! Lower and start squeeze. Your hold depending on age, physical fitness will be a certain length of time....2 secs, 5 secs...whatever. Your shot should break inside this window. I believe rifle shooters are the only one's who can really time their shots because if the two hand supported positions. Years ago there was a video of Olympic Silver Medalist Bob Foth shooting between heart beats. Very impressive vudeo. Any how in my opinion as hold diminishes so does trigger control. So by starting trigger squeeze early we are attempting to shoot sooner than later. 95% of the time for 'ME' it works in my favor. Hope this helps.
Jon
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Re: Can we talk Wobble?

Post by Jack H on 4/21/2017, 3:33 pm

Jon,
What I interpret you are saying then is that the final two moves of the shot are simultaneously :
1. lowering at the shoulder towards your best sight picture which is already 99% established by "hold"
2. trigger finger
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