Need help slowing down.

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Need help slowing down.

Post by Magload on 5/8/2017, 1:42 pm

I am shooting way to fast I need to slow it down.  Just not sure how to get that done.  SF in the club shoot is 10 rounds in 5 minutes and I am still finishing in half the time allotted.  Using my timer I am firing both TF and RF in 8 seconds.  Sunday I had a jam first round of TF and was able drop mag reload round in mag and finish before the target turned.  I know if I slowed down and aimed better I would increase these high 70s low 80s a bunch.  Is it the Drills I need to be doing on the Bullseye app?  Don
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by VolScorpion on 5/8/2017, 1:55 pm

For slow fire, I treat each shot as the first shot of timed fire. I put the gun down after every shot fired. Once I inhale the gun to firing position and exhale to my POI, it's just "squeeze, 2 3 4" in my head and if the shot does not break in that time, I restart

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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Chris Miceli on 5/8/2017, 2:19 pm

If they are all perfect shots what does it matter how much time you take?  Only shoot those shots that are perfect (i have an issue with this) also if you think you can "save" the shot(another problem of mine).... put the gun down its already too late to save it.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Tim:H11 on 5/8/2017, 3:55 pm

Slow fire takes a lot of dedication to learning how to make one shot your best performance and not force it. Hold too long and it's lost. Put the gun down. Start over. Shoot too fast and risk jerking the shot. Bad. Don't do that. Time need not matter so long as you don't go over.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by AllAces on 5/8/2017, 5:07 pm

During slow fire, after firing a shot, come back on target with your sights.  Reacquiring the target will help during Timed and Rapid. After reacquiring the target, lower the gun to the bench. Breath. A couple deep breaths will help slow you down. Then go through the same drill to get off your next slow fire shot. Timed and rapid are similar in that you train yourself to recover from recoil, acquire the target, breathing and trigger pull. This can be done during a dry fire exercise. As you gain confidence in your process of recoil recovery, acquiring the target and breathing, your shot timing will follow.  Dry firing exercises are your friend.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Oleg G on 5/8/2017, 8:36 pm

I have been doing a lot of dry-fire training with the 3-sec one shot drill in the Bullseye app. The time from "Is the line ready?" command to the sound of the horn marking the beginning of the 3 seconds is about 20 secs, and the time from "Ready on the left" - when you start to raise the gun - until the horn sound, is about 9 secs. So, training with this drill for slow fire would take no less than 2.5 minutes for 10 PERFECT shots. Schooling yourself to not shoot the less-than-perfect shots will easily stretch your time to 6 - 8 minutes or even longer. At the same time, you should not deviate from your shot process to make your shooting cadence artificially longer.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by BE Mike on 5/9/2017, 7:41 am

At your age, I wouldn't suggest slowing down too much in SF, as long as you are resting the gun between shots. Lack of endurance is a plague of older shooters (don't ask me how I know this). Of course there is no need to rush timed fire, but you should be giving yourself at least 12-15 seconds. Training for 9 seconds in rapid fire is a good way to avoid late shots. I find that using a stop watch and going over and over and over the 9 second drill until it becomes habit is helpful. You may even dry fire with a revolver to help. If you get a good first shot off in less than a second in sustained fire, you won't feel rushed. Good for you for pressing on at your age!
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Magload on 5/9/2017, 9:25 am

BE Mike wrote:At your age, I wouldn't suggest slowing down too much in SF, as long as you are resting the gun between shots. Lack of endurance is a plague of older shooters (don't ask me how I know this). Of course there is no need to rush timed fire, but you should be giving yourself at least 12-15 seconds. Training for 9 seconds in rapid fire is a good way to avoid late shots. I find that using a stop watch and going over and over and over the 9 second drill until it becomes habit is helpful. You may even dry fire with a revolver to help. If you get a good first shot off in less than a second in sustained fire, you won't feel rushed. Good for you for pressing on at your age!

Thanks I am reaching the age where if I take to long between shots I might forget what I am doing.  Not really it just seams like it.  My RF is 8 seconds but so is my TF and I just feel like I should slow that down a little.  I could understand that 8 seconds would be fine if I was shooting high 90s in that time but I am not.  I am shooting mid to upper 80s in both.  Don
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Tim:H11 on 5/9/2017, 12:18 pm

Probably not speed being the problem in your RF and TF but trigger control, and or possibly your grip and how it allows you to return the gun to the aiming area. Don't ambush or rush the trigger. Be mindful of where your trigger finger is on the trigger, and how your grip influences that. The 1911 doesn't have a pivoting trigger and our fingers aren't designed to come straight back so learning how to do this and not steer the gun as we press the trigger can be a hurdle to get over. Dry fire with a dot. The dot will tell you what's going on. Your gun should click and that dot shouldn't move.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by bdas on 5/9/2017, 12:54 pm

My experience with trying to get better at bullseye shooting is that you should:
A) Have a shot plan
B) Revise your shot plan or modify your equipment to address any issues you are having
C) Practice your shot plan during dry fire
D) In live fire, shoot each shot as best you can, according to your shot plan
E) Analyze your performance, then go to step B

Worrying about string timing is like worrying about target scores... it's best left until after you're done shooting, as part of the recurring, endless process of analyzing your performance and then enhancing/revising your shot plan (steps E & B).  While shooting, you should be concentrating on executing the steps in your shot plan.  If every shot is executed as best you can according to your shot plan, things like good scores and cadence and getting all the shots off in the allotted time will just happen.  If you are following your plan, and those things are not happening, you need to revise your shot plan (or improve your equipment).

If you think slowing down in slow fire or timed fire will enable you to improve your sum-of-10-shots scores, you presumably think that individual shots can be improved by doing things that you're currently skipping or rushing.  You should revise your shot plan to take the steps necessary to improve the one shot you're taking right now.  Maybe that's taking an extra second or two to let your wobble "settle" to a minimum.  Maybe that's pulling the trigger a little slower to minimize the disturbance of the sight alignment. Whatever it is that you think you're rushing/skipping, revise your shot plan to address it, practice your shot plan during dry fire, and follow your shot plan when shooting.

That, if you ask me, is the path to getting better at bullseye shooting (once you have reasonably accurate equipment).


Last edited by bdas on 5/9/2017, 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Improved wording in step B)

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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Magload on 5/9/2017, 1:37 pm

bdas wrote:My experience with trying to get better at bullseye shooting is that you should:
A) Have a shot plan
B) Revise your shot plan or modify your equipment to address any issues you are having
C) Practice your shot plan during dry fire
D) In live fire, shoot each shot as best you can, according to your shot plan
E) Analyze your performance, then go to step B

Worrying about string timing is like worrying about target scores... it's best left until after you're done shooting, as part of the recurring, endless process of analyzing your performance and then enhancing/revising your shot plan (steps E & B).  While shooting, you should be concentrating on executing the steps in your shot plan.  If every shot is executed as best you can according to your shot plan, things like good scores and cadence and getting all the shots off in the allotted time will just happen.  If you are following your plan, and those things are not happening, you need to revise your shot plan (or improve your equipment).

If you think slowing down in slow fire or timed fire will enable you to improve your sum-of-10-shots scores, you presumably think that individual shots can be improved by doing things that you're currently skipping or rushing.  You should revise your shot plan to take the steps necessary to improve the one shot you're taking right now.  Maybe that's taking an extra second or two to let your wobble "settle" to a minimum.  Maybe that's pulling the trigger a little slower to minimize the disturbance of the sight alignment. Whatever it is that you think you're rushing/skipping, revise your shot plan to address it, practice your shot plan during dry fire, and follow your shot plan when shooting.

That, if you ask me, is the path to getting better at bullseye shooting (once you have reasonably accurate equipment).

Very true words and they all lead to something I don't have, a shot plan.  I know I need one, I have tried to make one. I tried to copy ones from here.  I have 3 BE guns that will shoot way better then I can ever hope to shoot and good accurate reloads.  I guess I better work on the shot plan.  I need to get over the Oh dang am I going to run out of time bang bang bang as 6s beat zeros,  I shot IDPA I can keep a double tap in the target even with one hand.  Shooting two hand anymore is just to easy, but getting down on a old knee or ground requires help getting back up.  There fore I am learning BE the way a handgun should be shot.  Don
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Oleg G on 5/9/2017, 1:57 pm

Now you're getting somewhere: shot plan and shot process are a must. Write down what you THINK you should do to execute the perfect shot. Then test it in several dry fire sessions. Is the sequence of steps you have written down results in the dot staying in the center of the tube through the trigger press and after the hammer fall? If so, good, keep training. If not, find one, just one step in your written process that can be done better and focus on changing it (don't be afraid of experimenting) until it does get better. Then find another one, and another one.
And keep training on executing your process in dry fire sessions. This is what will improve your grip, reduce your wobble, shrink your groups and give you the correct (for you) timing on executing slow fire and sustained fire strings.
I had this epiphany a couple of months ago. And then made myself to rigorously follow my training plan. Results? In live fire practice this weekend I shot 811/900 with my 22 and 788/900 with my 45. These scores are rather modest but represent a huge improvement for me. My match scores have been steadily improving as well.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Magload on 5/9/2017, 4:03 pm

Feet placement for NPA, Natural point of aim.  Close eyes raise gun. lower gun open eyes is it on target?  If not move back foot till this works.  This step would only be used when setting up for a string and good till you move your feet.

Force gun into shooting hand with your off hand and grip.  Is the dot in the center of scope?  If not re grip.

Deep breath and gun rises.  Exhale. Another deep breath and gun rises above target.  Exhale and dot should lower into target.  As dot enters black start trigger moving.  If it doen't look good and feel good stop trigger and abort.  Lower gun in SF.  In TF and RF if the wobble is in the black keep trigger moving till break.  

Keep trigger back after break and keep aiming. watching the dot and muzzle blast.  SF reset trigger lower gun.  Sustained reset trigger as dot comes back on target and repeat.

Is this a start.   Don
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by orpheoet on 5/9/2017, 4:31 pm

The 3 things that did the most to improve my scores are all in this thread. 
Shoot slow fire like the first shot of timed fire.
Reacquire the front sight after every slow fire shot. 
Keep the trigger moving in sustained fire.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Oleg G on 5/9/2017, 6:37 pm

Good start for a shot process.
Suggestion:
Break it up into single lines and number the lines. Then it'll look like a checklist that you can execute step by step.
I would also suggest changing this:

As dot enters black start trigger moving.  If it doen't look good and feel good stop trigger and abort.  Lower gun in SF.  In TF and RF if the wobble is in the black keep trigger moving till break.  

As dot enters black, start the trigger moving
For Slow Fire: if the trigger movement is disturbed, abort and lower the gun.
For Sustained Fire: keep the trigger moving in a consistent press regardless of the wobble.

This is important - don't stop and restart the trigger based on your wobble. Stopping and restarting will move your sight alignment out much more than the biggest wobble you can have.
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by Magload on 5/9/2017, 6:47 pm

Oleg G wrote:Good start for a shot process.
Suggestion:
Break it up into single lines and number the lines. Then it'll look like a checklist that you can execute step by step.
I would also suggest changing this:

As dot enters black start trigger moving.  If it doen't look good and feel good stop trigger and abort.  Lower gun in SF.  In TF and RF if the wobble is in the black keep trigger moving till break.  

As dot enters black, start the trigger moving
For Slow Fire: if the trigger movement is disturbed, abort and lower the gun.
For Sustained Fire: keep the trigger moving in a consistent press regardless of the wobble.

This is important - don't stop and restart the trigger based on your wobble. Stopping and restarting will move your sight alignment out much more than the biggest wobble you can have.

I will work it into the list I was just checking if I was listing the right things or adding to much.  I have seen some good list on this site but I thing a list probably needs to be adjusted to the shooter.  Don
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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by bdas on 5/10/2017, 1:36 pm

Maybe I'm just not properly distinguishing between a "shot plan" and a "shot process", but I distinguish between things I do before and after the commands (is the line ready, the line is ready...) start.  Before is when I check things like stance/NPA, grip, etc.  Those steps can be long, detailed, and wordy.  After the commands start, I need to concentrate and time is of the essence, so my shot plan is more like a set of keywords to remind myself to do certain things (some people refer to these as "mantras" because they repeat them, at least in their head, for every shot; I don't, but probably should, do that).  

For example, in slow fire, I think through: relax, look, breath, preload, small, smooth.  Relax is literally that, I relax some of the muscles in my legs/back to cut down on swaying; it also distracts me from what's going on around me, so it helps me clear my mind.  Look is my reminder to look away from the target and focus on things that are at different distances, so that my (bad) eyes don't get too tired and start to become unfocussed on the target.  Breath is the trigger to start a sequence: deep breath in and out, normal breath on raise, half exhale on lower, hold my breath.  Preload reminds me to put partial pressure on the trigger as part of my hold. It was originally added to my shot plan for sustained fire, but crept into my slow fire process when I noticed that I wasn't doing it consistently.  Small comes from "aim small, miss small", but essentially means wait for my wobble to settle and is also a reminder to abort if things aren't going well (don't accept a big aim).  Smooth is a reminder for a smooth, consistent, uninterrupted trigger pull that goes past the bang (follow-through) and something of a reminder that at this point, I've committed to taking the shot, so don't start second-guessing stuff now.

But, as you correctly pointed out, all of that is entirely dependent on the shooter.  They are really indications of things that I do wrong or tend to forget.  I used to have reminders for other things, like centering the dot in the tube and checking the placement of my finger on the trigger, but as those became automatic, I eliminated them from my shot plan.  So, it changes over time, and I try to incorporate new reminders as I notice/realize other things that I could do better.

Dave

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Re: Need help slowing down.

Post by davekp on 5/11/2017, 6:45 am

Before you raise the gun off the bench, VISUALIZE everything you are going to do from that point forward.

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