Flinch / recoil

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Flinch / recoil

Post by Mike38 on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:24 pm

Shot in a 1800 short course match today. I had 5 misses (zeros) in the centerfire slow fire match. I have always had a struggle with flinching / anticipating recoil while shooting the .45, but today seemed real bad. I think what I'm doing is closing my eyes just before the shot breaks thus taking focus off the front sight, and, fighting the soon to come recoil but fighting it a split second soon so I'm breaking my wrist down, throwing the shot low. Even if those 5 zeros would have scored a six, I would have been happier. I've been reading on the internet on a cure for this. One "cure" would be concentrating, keeping focus on the front sight, and even following it up during recoil. Never never take your focus off that front sight. According to the non Bullseye author, this cures two things. Keeps your eyes open, thus focused on the sight, and helps stopping you from fighting the recoil. Just let the damn pistol recoil! Keep your eyes on the sight. Even when you're bringing it back down for follow up. True or don't do it?

But, even with all that, I shot my best score in an 1800 since coming out of retirement after a 13 year lay off (thanks to the .22). Could have easily been 30-40 points higher if it wasn't for those 5 zeros. Crying or Very sad

Anyhow, burn it into my empty cranium to stay on the front sight all the way through, or is this guy wrong?

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Allen Barnett on Sun Jun 11, 2017 6:36 pm

Front sight! Front sight! Front sight! That is what my pistol team coach always preached.  In addition if you are not seeing the brass eject from the pistol you are not watching the front sight.  It took me almost 2 years before I started seeing the brass eject, now I see it all the time.  Doing the old ball and dummy trick might help.  If you reload make yourself some dummy rounds that look just like your live ammunition.  Take 3 live rounds and two dummy rounds and load them in your magazine without watching the order in which the dummies go into the magazine so that way you do not know what order they will chamber.  This will help you with not only flinching but in to reducing trigger jerk.

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by CR10X on Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:30 pm

If you are not using foam earplugs AND the best ear muffs you can buy, get them now.  Lots of blinking are from noise and anticipation.  Make sure the muffs have a complete seal, get the earplugs really seated too.  

Next, quit the aversion training with the .45 and get training on your .22 pistol until you can COMPLETELY call the shot, before, during and after the sear breaks.  That's what they mean when focusing on the front sight, not just focus,  but really SEEING what is going on. 

Next, grip that gun.  I don't mean some semi-firm, millennial handshake type of pressure, but a good firm grip on the .22 so you can train on gripping the .45.  You can get away with a light grip on the .22 due to the lighter trigger, but the .45 will catch you every time you loosen the grip to try and get the trigger to break.  And it takes training the keep the trigger finger moving with that firmer grip.  Best advise here, get a .22 conversion for your 1911 and set up a 4 pound EIC trigger pull and get to training. 

So, get back to the basics of grip, continuous trigger and seeing everything.  

Hope this helps.

CR

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Chris Miceli on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:07 pm

CR10X wrote:If you are not using foam earplugs AND the best ear muffs you can buy, get them now.  Lots of blinking are from noise and anticipation.  Make sure the muffs have a complete seal, get the earplugs really seated too.  

Next, quit the aversion training with the .45 and get training on your .22 pistol until you can COMPLETELY call the shot, before, during and after the sear breaks.  That's what they mean when focusing on the front sight, not just focus,  but really SEEING what is going on. 

Next, grip that gun.  I don't mean some semi-firm, millennial handshake type of pressure, but a good firm grip on the .22 so you can train on gripping the .45.  You can get away with a light grip on the .22 due to the lighter trigger, but the .45 will catch you every time you loosen the grip to try and get the trigger to break.  And it takes training the keep the trigger finger moving with that firmer grip.  Best advise here, get a .22 conversion for your 1911 and set up a 4 pound EIC trigger pull and get to training. 

So, get back to the basics of grip, continuous trigger and seeing everything.  

Hope this helps.

CR
I guess my millennial handshake is stronger than others ^_^
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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by zanemoseley on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:34 pm

Mike, I feel your pain, I also have issues with recoil anticipation. On a good day my 22&45 scores are less than 30 points apart, on a bad day they can be over 100 points apart.

Today I shot a small local match and did pretty well with recoil, I ended up with a 2423 which is great for me but the second match with my 45 the recoil started to get to me.I have the biggest issues with slow fire and timed fire. Sometime you can try so damn hard on slow fire your head will make you pull shots. In timed fire you can get "chicken finger" which will get you behind on the clock then you really start yanking the trigger since your trying to catch up.

I shoot a red dot so the "front sight" doesn't really apply. I just try to keep at it and practice all I can. You just can't ever expect it to be like shooting a 22, it's a different animal. If you have a recoil averse brain like me and you, you just have to condition it till you can preform well with the calibers needed. I'm considering getting a Pardini .32acp to shoot for CF so I only have to shoot a 45 for one match, any way you look at it 180 rounds of .45 is quite a lot.

Rifle shooting is no different for me. I bought a 308 target rifle a few years back and loved the rifle but the recoil was on the edge of what I felt was comfortable and I'm sure it affected my scores some. I sold it and bought a 6BR, it is a MUCH more pleasant caliber to shoot.

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Magload on Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:53 pm

I like shooting my 1911 wadgun better then my Nelson 22, but then I have shot my other 1911s with 230 bullets and loaded them hot.  So now shooting these powder puff BE loads is a pleasure.  I once had a flinching problem in my youth when I had my dad buy me my first 12ga and I picked the very light model 37.  With heavy loads it killed on both ends.  I didn't know I was flinching but I could not shoot the gun like my 20ga.  My dad's friend loaded it once for me while shooting Trap and slipped in a dummy load.  I pulled the gun off my shoulder when I pulled the trigger.  He then put me on very light loads for the rest of that pheasant season and it cured me and I traded for a 870.  What I am saying is try the dummy load thing and if you are flinching back off on your loads as far as you can you might feel better shooting the gun then you can work the loads up to where you need them.  My Nelson is set up the same as my 45 dot and trigger and grips.  About the only thing a feel different is the recoil.  I still shoot the 45 better an I think that maybe I just like 1911s.  Don
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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by CR10X on Mon Jun 12, 2017 7:06 am

I guess my millennial handshake is stronger than others ^_
 
A good indicator is 3 or more X's per slow fire string......

CR

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Mike38 on Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:56 pm

CR10X wrote:If you are not using foam earplugs AND the best ear muffs you can buy, get them now.  Lots of blinking are from noise and anticipation.  Make sure the muffs have a complete seal, get the earplugs really seated too.  

Next, quit the aversion training with the .45 and get training on your .22 pistol until you can COMPLETELY call the shot, before, during and after the sear breaks.  That's what they mean when focusing on the front sight, not just focus,  but really SEEING what is going on. 

Next, grip that gun.  I don't mean some semi-firm, millennial handshake type of pressure, but a good firm grip on the .22 so you can train on gripping the .45.  You can get away with a light grip on the .22 due to the lighter trigger, but the .45 will catch you every time you loosen the grip to try and get the trigger to break.  And it takes training the keep the trigger finger moving with that firmer grip.  Best advise here, get a .22 conversion for your 1911 and set up a 4 pound EIC trigger pull and get to training. 

I do use foam plugs and good muffs, so that's covered.

Great advise on training with the .22. I have considered putting the .45 away and sticking with .22 only until I consistently get up to the scores I had back 13-15 years ago.

As for training with a 1911 conversation unit. Do you think in lieu of that, I could try the following? My 1911 has Herrett's Nationals grips. I have a High Standard Citation (that I do not use in matches) also with Herrett's Nationals. Same grip angle, same feel. If I turn up the trigger pull weight on the Citation, I might get over 3 pounds but doubt I could get to 4. Do you think That will make good training or is the .22 conversion the only way to go?

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Mike38 on Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:12 pm

Magload wrote: .....if you are flinching back off on your loads as far as you can you might feel better shooting the gun then you can work the loads up to where you need them. 

Interesting. But, I hesitate at changing anything. This last match was the first time I went all 90 rounds without an alibi with this .45. I finally got the extractor and load set up right! I currently use 3.9 grains of Titegroup under a 200 grain coated LSWC and a 14 pound recoil spring. I guess I could try dropping down a few tenths to lessen the felt recoil.

Alibis mess with my mind, the fewer the better, and none is great.

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Magload on Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:35 pm

Mike38 wrote:
Magload wrote: .....if you are flinching back off on your loads as far as you can you might feel better shooting the gun then you can work the loads up to where you need them. 

Interesting. But, I hesitate at changing anything. This last match was the first time I went all 90 rounds without an alibi with this .45. I finally got the extractor and load set up right! I currently use 3.9 grains of Titegroup under a 200 grain coated LSWC and a 14 pound recoil spring. I guess I could try dropping down a few tenths to lessen the felt recoil.

Alibis mess with my mind, the fewer the better, and none is great.

Good luck with those coated bullets.  They work fine at IDPA distances I have used many thousands of them along with plated ones.  I can not get good groups at 50yds with them and suspect the 25yd groups suffer some.  Don
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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by Larry2520 on Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:34 pm

The more you shoot/practice the more you'll get comfortable with the recoil. You'll be able to watch the case ejection and note where it goes. In the meantime you have to devise a plan to help yourself. I would keep telling myself just let it happen when I got to the point of aim. I find with timed and rapid you just don't have time to think. Too much thinking is bad!!! I also find if I have to take a whiz when doing timed and rapid that helps me get through it better. LOL

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by CR10X on Tue Jun 13, 2017 3:18 pm

As to the previous question about what to use.  Use what you have or can get.  I like a conversion on a 1911 frame so everything gets closer to feeling and operating the same.  You may find something else works for you better.  However I do not use orthopedic grips, .22 or .45.  For me, slabs are the way to go on everything,

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by joy2shoot on Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:11 pm

CR10X wrote:However I do not use orthopedic grips, .22 or .45.  For me, slabs are the way to go on everything,

I used to have European style grips on my .45 thinking it would give me a better grip.  At least they should since they cost significantly more than slabs, right?  But after mentally assessing my grip over the course of last season, I realized I was using these grips as a crutch and was not gripping as hard as I should.  So this season the European grips are off and slabs are on the .45.  The guns feels a little too thin to me but my grip is harder.

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Re: Flinch / recoil

Post by mikemyers on Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:01 pm

Just a few random thoughts, which may or may not be helpful.  I haven't been shooting much for a year, partly because of some medical issues, and on top of that, getting cataracts repaired in both eyes (several months apart).  It was frustrating to not really be able to see the front sight clearly - that's now corrected.  I had a pair of glasses made for me, polycarbonate lenses, with a prescription for perfect vision at the front sight. 

I used to think one of the main things to do, was lots and lots of dry-fire.  I need to start doing that again, but I don't see anyone referring to it up above??  Seems to me that "burning the right thing for your muscles to do" when you're practicing should help you perform better when shoot with live ammo.  There was something along the lines of "for every live round you fire, you should dry-fire 100 rounds".  Oh, and that you should also practice dry-fire against a white wall or "backing board", no target.

The best ear plugs and the best ear muffs - did that two years ago, and it helped, a lot.  Something I haven't tried yet, is I also bought a pair of electronic ear muffs, still with the very high rating, but also able to play music.  I was wondering if that would help me not realize exactly when the gun would fire.



I just got back from India (I do volunteer work there at an eye hospital).  Starting next week, I hope to be making regular trips to the range, and practicing dry-fire every day.  I'll see how this works out.....  There's a ton of information I've learned, just by reading a lot of posts in this forum.  Eventually, it all makes sense to me.
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