Loading for my 25-2

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Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/11/2017, 7:40 pm

I asked this in another post and probably shouldn't have asked three question in one post because it got over looked.  I was waiting a answer Saturday before starting to load test loads.  I read everything I could find on 45 ACP loads with WST as I have never used it before but there is not a lot of info for our BE loads.  Hodgdon site calls for a starting point of 4.4gr .  To hot for what I am looking for as the 3.8gr of BE are snappy in this light revolver.  I like them in my 1911.  So I loaded up 3.4gr WST with 185gr SNS cast SWDs and the same load with SNS 200gr cast RNFP.   Am I going to be ok with this and can I go lower.  If so how low.  I read the thing about getting the bullet out of the long barrel faster my help my shooting but I will learn to shoot right with out punishing my wrist.  Going to the range with a rest and the Labradar tomorrow but still have time before then to change loads.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by LenV on 6/11/2017, 7:49 pm

Your going to find out it is not as light now with the dot mounted. I tried 3.4 and it worked fine. That was with 185gr LSWC. I then went back to 3.8 when it wouldn't cycle my 1911s.

Len
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/11/2017, 8:01 pm

LenV wrote:Your going to find out it is not as light now with the dot mounted. I tried 3.4 and it worked fine. That was with 185gr LSWC. I then went back to 3.8 when it wouldn't cycle my 1911s.

Len

Len I figured that that is why I went with different bullets as I will have different loads for each gun and will just have to look at the bullet to know which gun it is for.  The 1911 uses Zero 185 SWCHPs SL and Zero 185 JHP for LL.  I probably will never use a revolver in a match as there is not that many matches here.  Thanks for answering the question I am looking forward to shooting these tomorrow and also shooting the gun with the dot.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/12/2017, 1:14 pm

Update:   Went to the indoor range this morning and ran four loads past my Labrader.  First two are my 1911 loads for my LB which I have been shooting for sometime now.  The second two are the WST loads I tried to down load for the 25-2.  All four were shot from my 25-2.

SL load, 185gr Zero SWCHP  3.8gr BE  AV 698
LL load  185gr Zero JHP        4.2gr BE  AV 636

SL load  185gr SNS cast SWC 3.4gr WST  AV 593
LL load  200gr SNS cast RNFP 3.4gr WST  AV 581

Well Len was right adding the rail and Ultradot added enough weight that the gun feels fine with the 1911 loads.  I really think that the Zero JHP needs speeded up some. The new loads with the WST are to slow.  The LV on the 185gr was 510 my air pistol shoots almost that hard.

I am open for any opinions on these results as I am still working on BE loads.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by LenV on 6/12/2017, 1:36 pm

Don. Just one last thought. Since your using four different types of bullets you will always be able to tell them apart. The 25-2 can fire all your 45 ammo. Your LB won't be able to. Idea
I know what I would do. Just load ammo that both can use. Your LB loads look like they would work great in the 25-2. That's just my .02 worth.

Len
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/12/2017, 2:00 pm

Len that was the two cents I was looking for.  I do think those two Zero bullets are going to work in both guns.  I found the 3.8gr of BE and the 185gr SWCHP work in my Shield 45 carry gun for practice.  I shot some loads today I had in my bag with out moon clips and pushed them out with my wood squid rod.  Really not a nad way if you are not in a hurry to reload.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by LenV on 6/12/2017, 5:48 pm

Don't even think your going to get away with just 2 loads however. Your going to want a load for your LB for CC and you want to develop a light but mean load for that M&P Shield. If you were in Oregon you would also want a heavy load for the 25-2 for the occasional black bear in your back yard. You also mentioned shooting the 25-2 by loading the cylinders manually. I know one shooter on this forum that competes with the 25-2 using auto-rim cases. They work great for plinking also. I use mine for that super hot load you need once in awhile. You might want to check them out some time. They only work in revolvers like the model 25.

Auto-rim.
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/12/2017, 6:58 pm

Len I have a GP100 and hot 357 Magloads that will at least burn some hair of the bear if nothing else.  The Shield 45 I normally shoot 200gr Berrys plated at 919 fps for SD practice.  Critical Defence for carry.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Ed L. on 6/13/2017, 9:00 am

Hi Magload! I bought a new Smith & Wesson Model 25-2 Model 1955 6-1/2" barrel target revolver from Gil Hebard Guns back in the
mid 1970's. I put it in a Ransom Rest and at 50 yards it would not hold the replacement center with factory 230 gr. hardball.
I then tried it with factory Winchester 185 gr. S.W.C. Super Match and it would not hold the replacement center! I felt sick!!
Ed King, an experienced Bullseye shooter since the 1950's saw my despair and he chuckled! He said, "Ed, I have never seen a Model
25 1955 .45 ACP revolver that would accurately shoot jacketed bullets. They will only accurately shoot lead bullets!" He told me that
they will shoot great with 185 gr. Hensley and Gibbs SWC bullets or with the H&G 68 200 gr SWC bullets.

Ed King was a fine bullet caster. I tried some of his ammunition loaded with his cast H&G #130 mould's 185 gr. SWC bullets loaded with
Bullseye powder. I loaded my Model 25's cylinder up a couple of times and slowly fired each one in the Ransom Rest as Ed King watched.
Every shot went right down the middle at 50 yards! It tore the X-Ring out and easily held the 10 ring! I was jumping up and down and
shouting for joy! Ed King was laughing and said, "See there. I told you it will shoot lead bullets."

Magload, after research I found out why it would only shoot lead bullets accurately at 50 yards. I looked in a Remington catalog and
noticed that their .45 Auto Rim revolver ammunition was loaded with 230 gr. round nose lead bullets instead of jacketed bullets.
I also discovered the sad truth: Many Smith & Wesson Model 25-2 1955 .45 ACP target revolvers have way oversized cylinder chamber
bullet throats. An accurate revolver should have a bullet that tightly passes through each of it's chamber throats before entering the
barrel's forcing cone. My bullets both jacketed and lead wobbled going through each chamber. I checked it's cylinder and every throat
that the bullets passed through were approximately .457"-.458". There is the problem! Optimally it should have had .451" inch cylinder
bullet throats so factory jacketed bullets would have tightly passed through them and aligned properly entering the barrel's forcing cone.
Lead bullets are much more forgiving than jacketed bullets when it comes to oversized chamber throats. Lead bullets will obturate at
the base and expand upon firing helping to seal the bullet to the oversized chamber throats allowing them to remain centered when
entering the barrel's forcing cone. Jacketed bullets will either not obturate or if they do then not enough to seal the cylinder chambers.
Another advantage to lead bullets is with oversized revolver cylinders you can utilize larger diameter bullets. I have not tried them,
but .454" sized lead bullets will work in .45 ACP cases and will depend less on obturation of the bullets in way oversized cylinders.
That is a common solution for revolvers with this malady.

Conclusion: Why did Smith & Wesson make so many .45 ACP revolvers with way oversized cylinder chamber throats that will not accurately
shoot factory jacketed ammunition at 50 yards? That is the big question! Hopefully your Model 25-2 does not suffer from that problem.
If your bullets will drop freely through your cylinder's chamber throats then measure them with a good set of calipers. If yours is like mine
and way oversized then forget jacketed bullets and switch over to lead. I know your post did not mention shooting at 50 yards, but having
guns and ammunition combinations that are accurate at 50 yards is always accurate at shorter distances. Guns and ammunition combinations
that are accurate at 50 feet or 25 yards will not necessarily shoot accurately at 50 yards. Fifty yards is the test to see if a target handgun
and ammunition are working together in harmony. Find the right accurate ammunition combination and enjoy your Model 25-2!

Good shooting!
-Ed

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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Ed L. on 6/13/2017, 9:19 am

Magload, here is a good description of lead bullet obturation that shows how much pressure is needed
for a lead bullet to obturate to seal the chamber. Thankfully it occurs at low pressure! For anyone with
oversized revolver bullet throats this is interesting reading. I am not saying that your Model 25-2 has oversized
throats but if it does......

-Ed

http://www.laser-cast.com/files/Understanding_bullet_obturation.pdf

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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/13/2017, 12:48 pm

Ed I think you may have given me the answer.  I will check this afternoon and let you all know.  I just came from the indoor range and my opinion right now is that this is a fine looking 95% gun that sucks at shooting a group off a rest at 20yds.  It could be the Zero 185gr SWCHPs with 3.8gr BE with a AV of 693 as I know that different guns like different bullets and different loads and I will keep searching for that load.  Just to check that I wasn't having a bad day I got my LB out of the box and shot the same loads off the same rest and got one ragged hole on the X.  I just tried to slip one of these bullets into the chambers and they will only go in half way then they are tight the same going into the forcing cone.  But if I slip the bullet in from the front of the cylinder it just slips in.  I am not real good using my Hornady digital caliber but it appears like they are .451 but some I think were .455.  The bullets are .452 which is what my caliber reads and that explains why it fits a little different in some of the holes.  Pardon my not using the correct terms I have never been a revolver man.  I think I some how need to mark a chamber and fire a group just using that chamber.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Jack H on 6/13/2017, 1:27 pm

Take a swaged bullet and smack it with a hammer to fatten it a little.  Then slug your cylinder throats.
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by james r chapman on 6/13/2017, 2:16 pm

Don, my 25-2 has.454-455 throats. Lead works better.
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/13/2017, 7:37 pm

I smacked a swag bullet down till I could just push it in and I would say I am at .452-453    I ordered a set of ball gage set as I really don't want to pound a slug into the cylinder.  I am to good at screwing stuff and not going to take a chance.  I have a couple boxes of Hornady Critical Defense 185gr FXT they aren't close to being BE loads at 1000 fps but I think I will see how they group and also shoot a group using only one chamber.  This has all brought me back to doing test and development and not learning to shoot BE.   My 17-5 will be here Wednesday or Thursday then I can test it.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/14/2017, 1:43 pm

UPDATE
Made it to the LL today to shoot some groups so that I would really know what I was getting.  Fired them using my modified Hyskore rest.  The results were very disappointing, but the group with the Federal Match target ammo proved that the major problem is my loads.

Zero 185gr SWCHPs 3.4gr BE  50yds  5of5 shots 9 1/4"  4of5 shots 5 3/4"  these are my 1911 SL loads  
                                                                       15 1/2"                12"   
                                                                       10 1/2"                9 3/4"

Federal 185gr FMJ SWC                                      3 1/4"                  3"

I had a limited supply so only fired one group of the Federals but that one group told me what I needed to know.  I had forgot to take my Zero 185 JHP 4.2 BE along but will try those and fire groups with each cylinder.

Just to check out my shooting I fired the Federals in my LB and grouped just under 2.5"  With my RR they will group under 2" so my benchrest shooting is not as good as the RR but is good enough.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by LenV on 6/14/2017, 2:12 pm

I know the 2 strays were mine. I called them when the hammer fell. I guess that would not make them strays just "darns". I use 3.8 gr BE and 185gr L-SWC that I get from T&B Bullets, located about 60 miles from my house.

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Re: Loading for my 25-2

Post by Magload on 6/14/2017, 2:22 pm

LenV wrote:I know the 2 strays were mine. I called them when the hammer fell. I guess that would not make them strays just "darns". I use 3.8 gr BE and 185gr L-SWC that I get from T&B Bullets, located about 60 miles from my house.


I am just going to use the two Zero bullets  I know what won't group at 50yds will group 10 ring at 25 and that is all I need.  I will work on the Zero JHP loads a little and see if I can tighten their group up in the 25-2 and still be good in the 1911.  BTW someday I might shoot a target like that right now a 91 is the best I have seen.  Don
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Re: Loading for my 25-2

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