Third season blues

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Third season blues

Post by Jwhelan939 on 6/19/2017, 11:34 am

I thought I had an issue with my crimp, but now it's pretty obvious the issue is me. I'm just not sure what I'm doing wrong. I'm in my 3rd season of club league. My Rf scores are still average for me at right around 280, but my 45 scores have tanked. I generally shoot in the 250s with my 45; however my last 2 nm courses have fallen into the 160 range. My group is still the same size (about 2-3") but it has fallen about 5" low and to the left. The gun has a good zero, and the dot is nice and tight. It has to be me. Any thoughts come to mind? I'm calling my shots good but then I scope them and they are low left in the 6. My grip and trigger finger placement are staying consistent. I just cant put my finger on what I'm missing. Thank you for your thoughts and opinions.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by STEVE SAMELAK on 6/19/2017, 11:50 am

That's where they go when I anticipate the recoil and yank the shot.  Sad
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Re: Third season blues

Post by Jwhelan939 on 6/19/2017, 1:03 pm

This off-season I focused on air pistol. Very little 45 practice. I guess I could have developed it in the off-season?

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Re: Third season blues

Post by zanemoseley on 6/19/2017, 1:43 pm

Low left shots for a RH shooter or low right shots for lefties like me are tell tale signs of a flinch. I also fight recoil anticipation. My flinch used to pull shots off the scoring rings in TF/RF but now a flinch is more likely in the 8/9 ring on a good day. My scores go up and down, I really have good and bad days with the 45, sometimes it just clicks and sometimes it doesn't. 

I also practice at home with a Steyr air pistol, not sure it helps much for shooting a 45 but it does help reinforce fundamentals.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by CR10X on 6/19/2017, 3:25 pm

Don't mean to be cute or anything, but think about this.  You're not calling your shots good if they ain't where you called them or you have scope or equipment issues.  

So, find out which it is and then proceed to fix it.  So, start with the easy fix first. 

Really bench the gun and ammunition combination and test it until you are fully confident it puts holes where the sights are.  Yes, shooting off hand later it will not be perfectly sighted in, but it will be a start and remove variable number one.  And put you in position to fully realize that the next variable to be worked on is the shooter.

So, next dryfire a lot.  But don't just stand there dryfiring by just point the gun, pulling the trigger or trying to keep everything perfectly still.  Start by learning how to actually see the relationship of the front and rear sight only (or just the dot in the tube). No target needed.  As a matter of fact, it's a distraction and probably contributing to the issue right now. 

You should be able to visualize the movement of the sights or dot from the last dryfire if you are really seeing what is happening as it occurs.  If you can't describe how the sights looked before, during and after the sear tripped, then you have found an area to work on. 

After you can really see what's happening, then you can work on grip, trigger operation and process to mitigate all the movement of the front sight with respect to the rear sight or the dot with respect to the tube.  

After about 3,000 or so correct applications, we can then add back the target.  But target is not to be "aimed at" but it simply provides a background against which to judge the wobble area of the gun / sight combination.  (For the dot sight even if you want to focus on the target, its still just there for judgement of the minimum wobble area / time, not to specifically aim at a point.)  

Basically, stop trying to "pick off" the best shot you "think" you see.  Really see what happening and get the process completed before the wobble gets bigger.  Shouldn't be snapping them off like a quick shot artist, but then again don't wait so long the birds start to land.  What you see will let you know the general optimum time.  And if it doesn't look consistent with other good shots, then don't shoot it. (That's the one I need to work on.)

Anyway, trying to say this in words is even tougher than shooting.  Hope you can get something out of the ramblings and opinions.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by Wobbley on 6/19/2017, 5:03 pm

Once you've determined that it IS flinching, ball and dummy exercises.  Preload 5 or 6 magazines with 2 ball and one dummy alternating the dummy in the #2 or #3 position.  Put them in a bag and shake them to mix them up.  Reach in to the bag without looking then load that mag without looking.  Shoot three round exercises in timed fire cadence.  You could just use standard 230 grain ball for this after you beef up the recoil spring 16 to 18 pound.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by jmdavis on 6/19/2017, 7:29 pm

What is the difference between when you shoot a 10 and a 7?
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Re: Third season blues

Post by Jwhelan939 on 6/19/2017, 8:31 pm

Thank you all for taking the time to respond and offer help. 

Cr10x, your 100% on. The thing that's driving me most crazy is that my calls are off. I'm calling a good shot and it's all in the low right spot. But the thing that gets me is my 22 scores haven't dropped at all. Actually, I shot a personal best last week. My calls are still perfect. I'm assuming that the aimpoint hasn't moved, but it is weird that every single shot is in the low and away group. Maybe something shifted. I'll put it on the ransom if I have a second this week. I do dry fire a lot, but I have given up a lot of dry fire time to work on the air pistol. Ap scores are upto the 560s, but not worth it if my BE scores are falling. I'll have to hit the dry fire time hard. 

Wobbley, I'll give her a try. Thank you. 

Mike, 
That's the funny thing. I'm not shooting any 10s with the 45. All 6s and 7s.  With the 22, I'm nailing them all day long. I'm following my process. Just not hitting what I expect to hit. 

I think I'm going to bench the gun first and make sure things didn't get messed up. If all is well, I'll know I need to dry fire more. Thanks again for all of your consideration.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by zanemoseley on 6/24/2017, 10:39 am

Your 22 scores will be much better, it's just common sense since they have no recoil basically. I'm the same way, very consistent with my 22, usually in the low 830's but depending on how well I'm managing recoil my 45 scores will be anywhere from the low 700's to the low 800's.

I will tell you this, the more you shoot you'll know almost instantly when you yank a shot instead of it being a surprise.

Another thing that will help is really working on your timing for rapid fire. Its easy to get chicken finger on the first shot or two trying to get off a good shot but then you get behind the clock and really start yanking shots. Timed fire isn't as big of an issues as you have loads of time.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by Rob9mmshooter on 7/7/2017, 8:07 pm

Well I am not ranked as high as some of the other responders but you have a problem like I had for a long time.  Your problem is not flinching it is yanking on the trigger when either you think you see a good shot or your arm is running out of gas and you get it over with.  The heavier trigger pull of the 45 is the biggest culprit along with the fact that you are not getting on the trigger promptly and continuing a good smooth pull to completion.  Using the Steyr LP-50 can help you get over that if you put the heavy 3.5-4.0 lb trigger in it, it is what cured me of the problem.  But focus on your sighting fundamentals and get on the trigger promptly and keep pulling steady to completion.  I aim to complete a slow fire shot in 5-9 seconds after I settle to the black and don't wait for the center of the black and a perfect picture.  On sustained fire when you are doing it right it will feel like you are constantly pulling the trigger starting even before complete recovery from recoil.  This assumes that you have your grip and stance established where when the gun is raised to the target the dot is in the center/front and back irons sights aligned and you are in the black without making any adjustments with the wrist.  If that is not the case you need to work on stance and/or grip until that is the case.  Shooting the air pistol took me from SS to Expert.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by Jwhelan939 on 7/7/2017, 8:24 pm

Thank you all for the responses! I think I had 2 problems. One, I spent all fall, winter, and spring focusing on the air pistol. It helped my 22 scores out, but hurt my 45 scores. Honestly I think one of my problems is the different grip angle. My wrist wants to keep going down. Also, while dry firing I could see that I was bringing the gun down and left. I didn't shoot much of the 45 during the off season. I did a ton of dry firing, and went out 2 Sundays and shot a good thousand rounds. Problem seems to be getting better. This past week I had a 289 Rf and a 259CF much closer to my normal. Next year I will not neglect the 45 so much during the off season. Thanks again for the responses.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by zanemoseley on 7/7/2017, 8:43 pm

See if you can find some indoor matches in your area to shoot over the Winter. That will help keep you interested and motivated.

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Re: Third season blues

Post by rich.tullo on 7/20/2017, 8:28 pm

OK Lower left and all low sounds like jerking to me. I am guilty of that too. What is the trigger pull on your 22Lr? if it's #2 then #3.5 is going to feel heavy. Keefer and Yur Yev has said too low a trigger pull can be detrimental. Here are some things I do which may help. Dry fire with purpose. I work on limiting movement , I work on grip and hold, and cancelling shots. In SF cancel shots, TF too but that is skill to be learned. If a 1911 shoot on your trigger finger knuckle like Zinns advises. I also use a Zinns grip but that works for me. Make sure your middle finger is not touching the bottom of the trigger guard it effects grip pressure. Loads, if you are shooting 4.0 BE under a 200gn SWC on the short line try 3.6 and 185s. It makes no sense to shoot a load on the SL that is hotter because it groups better if you are not holding rock hard. I find when calling shots it's where the dot or front sight is after the shot breaks that tells me where the shot is on the paper not where I think it was when I pulled the trigger. That will help with follow through.Once you start pulling the trigger you can either keep pulling or cxl the shot staging the trigger is a bad habit IMHO. I shoot roll triggers and staging ruins the trigger job.  Blank target drill. Turn the backer around and shoot at the middle. Repair with a backwards repair center. Practice blank targets until the groups get smaller. I bet as soon as you start doing that and turn the repair center around you will have a 90 or better if the center of the group is in the repair center. If the groups are small but are not on the repair center adjust the zero based on the largest hole. One way to cure flinching is dummy drills. Have a friend load a magazine with one or two dummy rounds or if you have a revolver load 3 bullets randomly you will see the flinch and get over it right away. Practice slow fire matches are one won in SF and lost in RF. If you shoot SF 90's you can shoot a 78 in RF and still break 800. Last do not worry about scores when you are shooting. All your mental energy needs to be on each element of the fundamentals. You got this. Jwhelan939 wrote:Thank you all for taking the time to respond and offer help. 

Cr10x, your 100% on. The thing that's driving me most crazy is that my calls are off. I'm calling a good shot and it's all in the low right spot. But the thing that gets me is my 22 scores haven't dropped at all. Actually, I shot a personal best last week. My calls are still perfect. I'm assuming that the aimpoint hasn't moved, but it is weird that every single shot is in the low and away group. Maybe something shifted. I'll put it on the ransom if I have a second this week. I do dry fire a lot, but I have given up a lot of dry fire time to work on the air pistol. Ap scores are upto the 560s, but not worth it if my BE scores are falling. I'll have to hit the dry fire time hard. 

Wobbley, I'll give her a try. Thank you. 

Mike, 
That's the funny thing. I'm not shooting any 10s with the 45. All 6s and 7s.  With the 22, I'm nailing them all day long. I'm following my process. Just not hitting what I expect to hit. 

I think I'm going to bench the gun first and make sure things didn't get messed up. If all is well, I'll know I need to dry fire more. Thanks again for all of your consideration.
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Re: Third season blues

Post by Jwhelan939 on 7/20/2017, 10:13 pm

Thanks Rich. Since I posted this, I have spent a dozen hours or so at the range and an equal amount dry firing. My Rf avg is in the mid 280s, and my 45 has been in the 240/50s since. Still not great, but back to my normal. I made a note in my journal. I need to make sure to practice the 45 in the off season next year. Shooting the ap all winter is great, but not practicing dealing with recoil at all hurt me big time. I could see it when practicing. Through dry fire, I could see how much I was dipping from the heavier 3.5# trigger. Didn't notice either until I looked for them. 1000 rounds of 45 was a great fix! As far as load goes, I am shooting 4.0 be with 200gr lswc. I haven't had any luck with the light 185gr loads in my gun. Anything less than 4gr and I get constant jams. I have a new 45 coming sometime soon, maybe that gun will like them better! Thanks again for the tips!

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Re: Third season blues

Post by daflorc on 7/20/2017, 11:52 pm

You have two choices for thr .45 - grip the gun much harder, or have an orthoepedic grip made - and then grip the gun firmer. That and flinching may be thr only reason your centerfire scores arent higher.

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Re: Third season blues

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