Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

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Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/2/2017, 7:24 pm

In preparation for next week I am weighing my triggers with a NRA trigger weight. I do not understand what or why this is happening but the trigger breaks at different weights. I am doing everything as consistently as possible, and times it will lift and swing 3.5# and others it will break at 3# 2oz, and some times lighter, then back to lifting 3.5#+. I am doing this by zeroing the weight on a digital kitchen scale and then lifting the weight and watching the number on the scale. I could understand an ounce or two change but that much would be and is noticeable for me when trying to practice earlier today. The gun is a Frerking custom, the ignition set is KC's battle axe. ???????????
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by LenV on 7/2/2017, 8:33 pm

Eliminate one variable at a time. I would start with the scale. I made a scale out of an old boat shaft but you can make one out of anything "almost". A bag of lead or marbles. Anything that you can get a consistent weight when measured. I mentioned the scale first because that would be my first suspect.

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by jglenn21 on 7/2/2017, 8:41 pm

how are you cocking the pistol? Always use the slide to cock it so that the disconnector  functions and resets..
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/2/2017, 8:45 pm

I was using  a weight light yours (not homemade) with it on a digital scale. You zero it out and then lift. You can see the weight, in negative, rising to see where it breaks. At times it  lifts the whole weight off the scale and can swing side to side a bit. Then, do it again and it wont lift the weight and breaks at 3lb 2oz. and all over the place, then will lift 3.5 again. I just upped the poundage on the sear spring and it will almost lift 4 now, just to be safe from the wild Camp Perry Zebras.
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/2/2017, 8:46 pm

jglenn21 wrote:how are you cocking the pistol? Always use the slide to cock it so that the disconnector  functions and resets..
I use the slide, the hammer is a battle axe and is difficult to do anyway. I've done it multiple ways, both with and without the trigger depressed (racking the slide), with and without a mag in too.
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by xmastershooter on 7/2/2017, 9:13 pm

I've attended the national matches 4 times and each time they only use official NRA trigger pull weights. It's either go or no go.  2 lbs min for .22, 3.5 lbs. for .45, 4 lbs. for hardball, 2.5 lbs. for DR.  No digital used.  Besides the official NRA weights, I also have the Lyman digital trigger pull, very unreliable and not consistent and no longer used.

As mentioned before, rack the slide to get the hammer set, and not pull the hammer back only.  Keep the pistol exactly vertical and make sure no part of the pistol is touching the the bar that holds the weights.  I would urge you not the set the trigger pull so high, near 4 lbs., leaving very little time to train with this trigger weight. 

At Perry, you would need to get clearance from the officials that the hardball and the revolver meet the minimum weight requirements.  After they measure, they will put a colored tape around the trigger guard. (I think that is what it's called).  They can also measure the trigger pull weights of your other pistols and adjust the sear spring as needed. Very good people and helpful.

Your original post stated that you do have the NRA trigger pull weights.  That's all you need.  Don't over think.

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/3/2017, 6:58 pm

If you aren't part of the Facebook Bullseye page I think I determine the cause. The appears that the hammer sear and disconnecter all magnetized. Quite odd, and it seems that demagnetizing isn't a simple task when you don't have the tools!
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by jglenn21 on 7/3/2017, 7:22 pm

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-Precision-Magnetizer-Demagnetizer-3601H/204664387

use these to magnetize screwdrivers.. also de-magnetize
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by 172snowhawk on 7/4/2017, 12:43 am

Could also be excessive lubricant on the contact surfaces of the sear and hammer.

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by davekp on 7/4/2017, 7:42 am

scrum derringer wrote:If you aren't part of the Facebook Bullseye page I think I determine the cause. The appears that the hammer sear and disconnecter all magnetized. Quite odd, and it seems that demagnetizing isn't a simple task when you don't have the tools!
Highly unlikely any magnetism is causing the issue. The parts are just too small. The real issue is the testing method. Use a NRA type weight set- not some strange scale set-up. And as others have said, the digital and fish scale type of scales are not very accurate.
How does it FEEL?
Does it feel OK shot to shot? If so, confirm it meets the minimum weight and stop worrying about it. Spend the time dry firing!

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by BE Mike on 7/4/2017, 7:48 am

davekp wrote:
scrum derringer wrote:If you aren't part of the Facebook Bullseye page I think I determine the cause. The appears that the hammer sear and disconnecter all magnetized. Quite odd, and it seems that demagnetizing isn't a simple task when you don't have the tools!
Highly unlikely any magnetism is causing the issue. The parts are just too small. The real issue is the testing method. Use a NRA type weight set- not some strange scale set-up. And as others have said, the digital and fish scale type of scales are not very accurate.
How does it FEEL?
Does it feel OK shot to shot? If so, confirm it meets the minimum weight and stop worrying about it. Spend the time dry firing!
^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^ If you aren't noticing and bothered by a change in weight when you are shooting or dry firing, and have legal trigger weights, just carry on!
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by Ed Hall on 7/4/2017, 10:42 am

scrum derringer wrote:... I could understand an ounce or two change but that much would be and is noticeable for me when trying to practice earlier today...
My emphasis for those that apparently missed this in the first post.

Now to some things to check:

- Make sure the trigger stop isn't set too close.  You should have some travel between the sear release and the trigger stop.  Additionally, make sure the half cock isn't touching the sear nose in its arc of travel with the trigger pulled.  This is a very common mis-adjustment.
- Examine the lower surface of the notch in the grip safety arm where it engages the trigger stirrup.  See if it has been rubbing the stirrup.  If so, it may be shiny and/or rough.
- Make sure the trigger isn't too sloppy in the frame.

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/4/2017, 2:46 pm

davekp wrote:
scrum derringer wrote:If you aren't part of the Facebook Bullseye page I think I determine the cause. The appears that the hammer sear and disconnector all magnetized. Quite odd, and it seems that demagnetizing isn't a simple task when you don't have the tools!
Highly unlikely any magnetism is causing the issue. The parts are just too small. The real issue is the testing method. Use a NRA type weight set- not some strange scale set-up. And as others have said, the digital and fish scale type of scales are not very accurate.
How does it FEEL?
Does it feel OK shot to shot? If so, confirm it meets the minimum weight and stop worrying about it. Spend the time dry firing!
As I mention in the first line of the first post, I am using NRA weights. I am placing the weights on a flat digital kitchen scale and then zeroing out the "tare" or whatever. Then I lift the weights (4 pounds) with the pistol. The scale display then goes into the negative showing the weight being lifted off. It will break between less than 3 and the lift the whole 4. I figure when you only lift the known wights, and it lifts 4#, the trigger could be a 4 to 20# pull (exaggeration). By doing it this way I can see where it is breaking. I am not looking for the perfect near 3.5# break, I am looking to see if it is consistent. The problem is I can feel the inconsistency where one shot feels normal, and the next is much lighter. An ounce here or there, who cares, but when it is over a half pound ... thats my problem. In addition I am worried about being DQ'd on the line at Perry for a trigger weight when at times it lifts 3.5 easy, but may go off at 3 or less. I have since re- cleaned after 50 shots ( and found out about the magnetism) and upped the poundage a bit on the sear spring, so when it is lighter it will lift 3.5 easy.
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by Jack H on 7/4/2017, 3:42 pm

I had some flash at the inside of the mag release hole rub on the trigger in a Range Officer.  Took a while to find the problem, but it was an easy fix.  Now all is perfect.
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by Magload on 7/4/2017, 3:57 pm

I have the NRA weight set also and I made 3 one ounce weights  by pounding round fishing sinkers flat enough that they don't roll off the top weight on the NRA set.  I drilled them and weighted them on my powder scale till I had 437.5gr which is 1oz rounded off.  I too like to know what I am exactly at. Maybe it's the 12 years in a Navy Calibration  Lab or just OCD.  Don
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by Mike38 on 7/4/2017, 5:34 pm

I've never heard of lifting weights off of a scale like that. I have an official set of NRA weights. When I measure the trigger pull of an unknown gun, I put the most weight possible on (5 pounds) , then test. Then take off a little at a time until it doesn't break, that's the trigger pull weight. Don't need to know the exact weight if over 5 pounds. If the pistol will lift 5 pounds, it's no good for Bullseye shooting anyhow.

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by james r chapman on 7/4/2017, 6:01 pm

interesting method to evaluate it.
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Pictures of what I am trying to say regarding the use of weights and a scale.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/4/2017, 6:05 pm

Mike38 wrote:I've never heard of lifting weights off of a scale like that. I have an official set of NRA weights. When I measure the trigger pull of an unknown gun, I put the most weight possible on (5 pounds) , then test. Then take off a little at a time until it doesn't break, that's the trigger pull weight. Don't need to know the exact weight if over 5 pounds. If the pistol will lift 5 pounds, it's no good for Bullseye shooting anyhow.
I figure its better I explain in pictures what I mean in regards to the weights and digital scale. Again, I was doing this to see the (huge) variations in pull weight which was felt in hand. I marked a spot on the arm that lifted the weights evenly and was a consistent measuring point. As you can see in the last picture (staged for the camera, obviously using 2 hands normally) the pull weight is just over 3.5 lbs. (or whatever a pull weight may be that is under 4#) Again I am not attempting to obtain the lowest possible weight to be legal, I would rather have consistency.

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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by SW-52 on 7/4/2017, 6:27 pm

scrum derringer wrote:
Mike38 wrote:I've never heard of lifting weights off of a scale like that. I have an official set of NRA weights. When I measure the trigger pull of an unknown gun, I put the most weight possible on (5 pounds) , then test. Then take off a little at a time until it doesn't break, that's the trigger pull weight. Don't need to know the exact weight if over 5 pounds. If the pistol will lift 5 pounds, it's no good for Bullseye shooting anyhow.
I figure its better I explain in pictures what I mean in regards to the weights and digital scale. Again, I was doing this to see the (huge) variations in pull weight which was felt in hand. I marked a spot on the arm that lifted the weights evenly and was a consistent measuring point. As you can see in the last picture (staged for the camera, obviously using 2 hands normally) the pull weight is just over 3.5 lbs. (or whatever a pull weight may be that is under 4#) Again I am not attempting to obtain the lowest possible weight to be legal, I would rather have consistency.

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Beautiful 1.5 premier.
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by Jack H on 7/4/2017, 6:34 pm

The human physical lifting off the scale is very suspect to me.  I don't think you can lift the same way every time.  I suggest using the weight set as intended.
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by scrum derringer on 7/4/2017, 6:49 pm

Jack H wrote:The human physical lifting off the scale is very suspect to me.  I don't think you can lift the same way every time.  I suggest using the weight set as intended.
Possibly, but the gun in the background consistently broke at 4 pounds  4 ounces doing this method. I guess you could call it the control.???
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Re: Trigger pull weight changing- inconsistent from pull to pull.

Post by BE Mike on 7/4/2017, 6:58 pm

Ed Hall wrote:
scrum derringer wrote:... I could understand an ounce or two change but that much would be and is noticeable for me when trying to practice earlier today...
My emphasis for those that apparently missed this in the first post.

Now to some things to check:

- Make sure the trigger stop isn't set too close.  You should have some travel between the sear release and the trigger stop.  Additionally, make sure the half cock isn't touching the sear nose in its arc of travel with the trigger pulled.  This is a very common mis-adjustment.
- Examine the lower surface of the notch in the grip safety arm where it engages the trigger stirrup.  See if it has been rubbing the stirrup.  If so, it may be shiny and/or rough.
- Make sure the trigger isn't too sloppy in the frame.
One reason you rose to High Master...attention to detail. Thanks for pointing out our overlooking that phrase. Good advice on what to look for regarding the problem.
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