Keep the trigger moving?

by Magload Thu May 11, 2017 10:22 am

Guys I don't want to be difficult but I just don't get this concept. I can understand keep applying pressure but if my trigger moves any it breaks. I have KC's triggers in my LB and Nelson and I am darn if I can feel any movement before the break. Yes there is a little pre travel that has no tention at all but that is very little. I have sit here closed my eyes and squeezed slowly and if there is any trigger movement it is very very small. If I started that movement before I neared the X ring I would be shooting the top of the black or 8 ring. It maybe just me. It maybe just the triggers, but I need to get this right as I understand it is not like my benchresting the gun where I hold the 1 MOA dot or crosshairs on the X and squeeze. My 70 year old reactions time and the time it takes the bullet to leave the barrel after the trigger breaks leaves the dot somewhere other then the X. So move the trigger or apply the pressure. Don

by Chris Miceli Thu May 11, 2017 10:48 am

When i press on my trigger i take up that pre travel slack first, as i lower into the black i start the pressure on the trigger. I CAN feel my trigger moving rearward. When i do things correctly as i put the pressure on the trigger the dot tends to stabilize more so than if i was just aiming and had just a set amount of pressure on the trigger(less then enough to break the shot). With a crisp trigger i get the same dot stability as i press i just can't feel it moving. Typical outcome for me is the same from either trigger styles, but i don't really know when my trigger will break with the crisp. I'm not skilled enough to tell what 4lb feels like on my finger or i'm not intimate enough with my crisp trigger. That is how it is to me....now consistency to break a well aimed shot every time.....................my thick skull is working on that.

Other things to note is trigger "roll" from one person to another on the same gun varies. I think my trigger is on the longer end of short. Some might say the shorter end of medium. The first roll trigger i felt, the owner claimed it a short but it felt like an extra long roll.

Try pulling the trigger with the pad of your finger, right below the pad, the crease at the knuckle then do the same with your non dominant finger. Maybe this will enlighten you in some way. KCs trigger kit is gonna have some level of roll out of the package.

by daflorc Thu May 11, 2017 11:50 am

Magload wrote:Guys I don't want to be difficult but I just don't get this concept. I can understand keep applying pressure but if my trigger moves any it breaks. I have KC's triggers in my LB and Nelson and I am darn if I can feel any movement before the break. Yes there is a little pre travel that has no tention at all but that is very little. I have sit here closed my eyes and squeezed slowly and if there is any trigger movement it is very very small. If I started that movement before I neared the X ring I would be shooting the top of the black or 8 ring. It maybe just me. It maybe just the triggers, but I need to get this right as I understand it is not like my benchresting the gun where I hold the 1 MOA dot or crosshairs on the X and squeeze. My 70 year old reactions time and the time it takes the bullet to leave the barrel after the trigger breaks leaves the dot somewhere other then the X. So move the trigger or apply the pressure. Don

Are you putting the trigger in the fleshy part of your trigger finger, or are you putting it in the crease? For bullseye, you want to put the trigger right in that first crease of your finger. There's less flesh which gives you more tactile feedback.

KC's triggers feel different in each gun that I have them in. Also, i noticed that you'll feel more roll with higher trigger weights. I had it in my 9mm Les Baer, and it felt like a crisp break at 2.5lbs. I bumped the pull weight up to 4.5lbs to shoot EIC with it, and now it has a longer feeling pull than my RRA or my Ruger lower with a Nelson. It almost feels like pulling the trigger is stretching a rubber band until it snaps. So you can put slow steady pressure on the trigger for a couple seconds while you stabilize your red dot. That trigger pressure helps stabilize the gun/dot. In this respect, a slightly heavier trigger is actually better to stabilize the gun than a light trigger.

by Chris Miceli Thu May 11, 2017 12:01 pm

daflorc wrote:Are you putting the trigger in the fleshy part of your trigger finger, or are you putting it in the crease? For bullseye, you want to put the trigger right in that first crease of your finger. There's less flesh which gives you more tactile feedback.

Every ones hands are different what if you can't get that part of the finger on the trigger without twist your wrist completely around the gun? Find out what works for you.

by daflorc Thu May 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
daflorc wrote:Are you putting the trigger in the fleshy part of your trigger finger, or are you putting it in the crease? For bullseye, you want to put the trigger right in that first crease of your finger. There's less flesh which gives you more tactile feedback.
Every ones hands are different what if you can't get that part of the finger on the trigger without twist your wrist completely around the gun? Find out what works for you.

That piece is straight out of the Zins playbook. I'm sure some people with smaller hands would have a difficult time using the "Zins grip," but when the best in the world shares a tidbit of advice, I try to listen. For those with small hands, using a very short trigger might help get that trigger finger in the crease. I noticed everything improving once I adopted this method - smaller groups, more tactile feedback. If you're capable of doing it, it's worth a shot.

by Chris Miceli Thu May 11, 2017 12:49 pm

daflorc wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
daflorc wrote:Are you putting the trigger in the fleshy part of your trigger finger, or are you putting it in the crease? For bullseye, you want to put the trigger right in that first crease of your finger. There's less flesh which gives you more tactile feedback.
Every ones hands are different what if you can't get that part of the finger on the trigger without twist your wrist completely around the gun? Find out what works for you.

That piece is straight out of the Zins playbook. I'm sure some people with smaller hands would have a difficult time using the "Zins grip," but when the best in the world shares a tidbit of advice, I try to listen. For those with small hands, using a very short trigger might help get that trigger finger in the crease. I noticed everything improving once I adopted this method - smaller groups, more tactile feedback. If you're capable of doing it, it's worth a shot.

Brain can step in if i'm wrong because i don't speak for him. I was in a class of his recently i remember him saying that is how he does it, and it may not work for everyone. Consistent trigger manipulation without disturbing the sights/dot is whats important do it how YOU have to.

by daflorc Thu May 11, 2017 1:12 pm

That piece is straight out of the Zins playbook. I'm sure some people with smaller hands would have a difficult time using the "Zins grip," but when the best in the world shares a tidbit of advice, I try to listen. For those with small hands, using a very short trigger might help get that trigger finger in the crease. I noticed everything improving once I adopted this method - smaller groups, more tactile feedback. If you're capable of doing it, it's worth a shot.
Brain can step in if i'm wrong because i don't speak for him. I was in a class of his recently i remember him saying that is how he does it, and it may not work for everyone. Consistent trigger manipulation without disturbing the sights/dot is whats important do it how YOU have to.

No argument here. But if the OP isn't feeling much roll in his roll trigger, that's a possible reason why. For me, KC's roll triggers helped much, and I imagine the OP would like to experience that roll himself.

by AllAces Thu May 11, 2017 1:39 pm

I have KC's roll trigger in my 1911. As I come up from the bench I take up the slack in the trigger. As soon as I acquire the black I begin a steady pull on the trigger. I can feel the roll but I don't concentrate on it, only on my sight picture. The gun fires and I recover back to the black, even on the long line. I follow the same process for timed and rapid. My M41 has a crisp trigger so there is no roll. However, I follow the same shot process, take up the slack, acquire the black, steady even squeeze, recoil, recover back on the black. I follow this same shot process during dry fire. I typically dry fire both guns everyday, at least 90 shots, more as time permits. Dry fire is your friend.

by Tim:H11 Thu May 11, 2017 2:03 pm

Finding a grip and a trigger finger placement that allows you to feel what you need to but also accomplish a trigger press without disturbing your sights is nesecary. Dry fire will show you what works and what doesn't. For me, I like to feel where the trigger is and know where it needs to be to break. This helps some not to launch one off early, or get my dot to center and wait for a bang.

Press, bang, hold trigger down till gun reaches top of arch, reset as I start my recovery, take up slack - still recovering, pressing though the alignment of my sights, dot hits center, bang.

by Magload Thu May 11, 2017 2:22 pm

daflorc wrote:

That piece is straight out of the Zins playbook. I'm sure some people with smaller hands would have a difficult time using the "Zins grip," but when the best in the world shares a tidbit of advice, I try to listen. For those with small hands, using a very short trigger might help get that trigger finger in the crease. I noticed everything improving once I adopted this method - smaller groups, more tactile feedback. If you're capable of doing it, it's worth a shot.
Brain can step in if i'm wrong because i don't speak for him. I was in a class of his recently i remember him saying that is how he does it, and it may not work for everyone. Consistent trigger manipulation without disturbing the sights/dot is whats important do it how YOU have to.

No argument here. But if the OP isn't feeling much roll in his roll trigger, that's a possible reason why. For me, KC's roll triggers helped much, and I imagine the OP would like to experience that roll himself.

You are right I would like to feel some roll.

I have read Brian's stuff, The Army Pistol Manual, and several other stuff. I have a MantisX and a Scatt Basic. I have tried all the places on my finger and like the fat part of the last section the best. With the trigger shoes on both guns the crease doesn't work well. Now shooting my 52-2 today with a stock trigger I feel it move. Maybe this dog is to old to learn this BE trick, but I will give it a year. Don

by LenV Thu May 11, 2017 2:26 pm

Totally disagree with some of the above. Keeping the trigger moving is 100% mental. You don't have to feel the movement of the trigger. There doesn't have to be any movement of the trigger. What there has to be is a constant increase in the pressure your applying to the trigger. Maybe it should be worded differently. Keep your mind moving or something like that. Remember that is just my opinion YMMV.

Len

by daflorc Thu May 11, 2017 2:48 pm

LenV wrote:Totally disagree with some of the above. Keeping the trigger moving is 100% mental. You don't have to feel the movement of the trigger. There doesn't have to be any movement of the trigger. What there has to be is a constant increase in the pressure your applying to the trigger. Maybe it should be worded differently. Keep your mind moving or something like that. Remember that is just my opinion YMMV.

Len

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

As a master shooter, you are more easily able to understand that reality of the trigger press than a novice. If a roll trigger equates to training wheels to teach a shooter how to keep the trigger moving, its still an aid for a novice to be able to feel it (and it feels good to feel what the trigger kit purports to offer after you just spent $200 on it). I wonder if I didn't put KC's triggers in all my guns, if I would have ever understood the truth in the statement that you made.

by Magload Thu May 11, 2017 4:21 pm

I really like these KC triggers they are so much better then the stock triggers but I don't feel the movement to me they are breaking like the old glass rod. I know what movement feels like as I have many S&W M&P model pistols and on those I could feel all the roughness as the trigger moved. After installing Apex trigger kits in my non carry guns I could feel the smooth trigger. I am headed to the pistol safe to pull triggers on a bunch of 1911s and see what I feel. Report coming soon. Don

by Magload Thu May 11, 2017 4:41 pm

Check 7 1911s all feel the same two of those have KC triggers. Is it possible I installed them wrong or is my fingers just brain dead? Just checked all finger on both hands it is possible to pull a trigger with and it doesn't matter. Not going to worry about it I can learn to shoot these just fine. Don

by robert84010 Thu May 11, 2017 6:08 pm

I think the better word phrasing is: keep the trigger finger moving. Once you commit to the shot and start to increase pressure, you keep the finger moving until the shot breaks. Whether that is a slow increase or a rapid increase in pressure, once you start moving your finger you keep increasing pressure. just because you move your finger doesn't mean the trigger is moving. this can be determined by which part of the finger you put on the face of the trigger.
I've been told that continuous starts and stops with a roll trigger will cause the roll to change. it's not good for the sear or hooks. Having a roll trigger means you really have to commit to the shot and once the trigger starts to move you never stop increasing pressure.

by Chris Miceli Thu May 11, 2017 6:14 pm

robert84010 wrote:I think the better word phrasing is: keep the trigger finger moving. Once you commit to the shot and start to increase pressure, you keep the finger moving until the shot breaks. Whether that is a slow increase or a rapid increase in pressure, once you start moving your finger you keep increasing pressure. just because you move your finger doesn't mean the trigger is moving. this can be determined by which part of the finger you put on the face of the trigger.
I've been told that continuous starts and stops with a roll trigger will cause the roll to change. it's not good for the sear or hooks. Having a roll trigger means you really have to commit to the shot and once the trigger starts to move you never stop increasing pressure.

.....if that works for you. If I'm moving my trigger or building pressure and something is wrong I'm aborting

by robert84010 Thu May 11, 2017 7:29 pm

Chris,
well back at you, whatever works for you, kinda rude when it's directed at you, isn't it.

more than one HM here state unequivocally once the trigger finger starts you do not stop. That's because all the other elements are within error margins and you are committed.
just saying.

by Magload Thu May 11, 2017 7:57 pm

robert84010 wrote:Chris,
well back at you, whatever works for you, kinda rude when it's directed at you, isn't it.

more than one HM here state unequivocally once the trigger finger starts you do not stop. That's because all the other elements are within error margins and you are committed.
just saying.

I should probably stay out of this but being the OP it is my post. Yes they say don't stop the trigger, but they also say if the shot don't feel right abort and start all over. I think what they are saying is don't stop the trigger and restart it. Don

by Chris Miceli Thu May 11, 2017 8:09 pm

robert84010 wrote:Chris,
well back at you, whatever works for you, kinda rude when it's directed at you, isn't it.

more than one HM here state unequivocally once the trigger finger starts you do not stop. That's because all the other elements are within error margins and you are committed.
just saying.

Sorry I hurt your feelings....your right. Feeling better ?

Don I think that would be a very good way of thinking about it.

by Magload Thu May 11, 2017 8:19 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
robert84010 wrote:Chris,
well back at you, whatever works for you, kinda rude when it's directed at you, isn't it.

more than one HM here state unequivocally once the trigger finger starts you do not stop. That's because all the other elements are within error margins and you are committed.
just saying.
Sorry I hurt your feelings....your right. Feeling better ?

Don I think that would be a very good way of thinking about it.

Now if I could just do it. Seams like a abort is one of the hardest things to do for me at least. Don

by Chris Miceli Thu May 11, 2017 8:35 pm

Magload wrote:
Chris Miceli wrote:
robert84010 wrote:Chris,
well back at you, whatever works for you, kinda rude when it's directed at you, isn't it.

more than one HM here state unequivocally once the trigger finger starts you do not stop. That's because all the other elements are within error margins and you are committed.
just saying.
Sorry I hurt your feelings....your right. Feeling better ?

Don I think that would be a very good way of thinking about it.

Now if I could just do it. Seams like a abort is one of the hardest things to do for me at least. Don

I asked Zin's in the class how often he aborts. Said not as many as he should

by Tim:H11 Thu May 11, 2017 8:58 pm

If I abort a shot I push back on the hammer to make sure any pressure I might have had on the trigger, didn't leave the sear in a place other than a true start over. Meaning sear where it should be if I hadn't touched it. I typically go another step further and I bring the slide back just enough to reset the disconnector as well. I used to do this with my 41 when I had one. necessary? Maybe, or maybe not I don't know but I had peace of mind and that's important. Can't worry about the gear. Gotta trust it. Not sure if relevance but when aborting a shot came up and we're talking triggers this is how I deal with such matters.

Now about constant pressure. True. You do have to commit to the shot. There is a point of no return. But leading up to that point I'll abort if something isn't right. Grip, trigger finger, mental state, focus, so on. In sustained fire it's a little more tricky. I personally have to commit to the trigger press and drive the gun so to speak. I'll admit sometimes I get a shot that takes longer than it should but that's a lack of focus or an error somewhere and I'm required to correct it and fire on the fly since it's sustained fire. Not a lot of time to perfect it. It'll be there or it won't.

by rreid Thu May 11, 2017 9:49 pm

There's an article in the Pistol Shooter's Treasury by Blankenship where he describes attaching a pressure gauge to his trigger. The goal was to keep the needle moving until the shot broke. No hesitation, no starting and stopping. The temptation is to stop pressing when the sight picture moves, wait for it to stabilize, and start pressing again. By "keeping the trigger moving, " you're just constantly increasing pressure on the trigger, without hesitating.

by jglenn21 Thu May 11, 2017 10:17 pm

good point about resetting the trigger Tim.. I do the exact same thing...

by davekp Fri May 12, 2017 7:13 am

Now about constant pressure. True. You do have to commit to the shot. There is a point of no return. But leading up to that point I'll abort if something isn't right. Grip, trigger finger, mental state, focus, so on. In sustained fire it's a little more tricky. I personally have to commit to the trigger press and drive the gun so to speak. I'll admit sometimes I get a shot that takes longer than it should but that's a lack of focus or an error somewhere and I'm required to correct it and fire on the fly since it's sustained fire. Not a lot of time to perfect it. It'll be there or it won't.

Yes.
Once you commit to taking the shot, DRIVE the gun. You must be in control.

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