What is a reasonable score?

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What is a reasonable score?

Post by mikemyers on 7/20/2017, 7:14 pm

Today is the first day in two years that I brought actual NRA targets to the range.  Until now, I've been bringing either targets so I could calculate my group size, and then targets with a single 1 1/2" black bull, nothing else.

Next step was to look up how to score the NRA targets - hopefully I did this right, anything touching or inside the 10 ring gets 10 points, and so on for the 9, 8, 7, and whatever other rings.  Take 10 shots, do the math, and there will be a total ranging from 0 to 100.

My question here, is to ask how well "average" shooters do.  If someone gets a score of 60, 70, 80, 90, or whatever, when does it start to be considered "good".  This is for average people, who just enjoy bullseye shooting.  It's not for world record holder champions.  


As a side thought, I would think 90% of how well someone does is determined by their personal ability, and maybe 5% by the equipment they use, and maybe another 5% based on the ammunition.   .....which implies spending a lot of money on the best gun or the best ammunition is NOT worthwhile until someone gets "good enough" for that to matter.  For someone scoring 70 on a target, that's probably not worthwhile.  If they score 80, maybe - not sure.  I'd guess that once they score over 90, that is the time to start looking at the equipment.  Any thoughts?
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by james r chapman on 7/20/2017, 7:25 pm

to be honest, anytime I can hit 90  on any target I'm happy.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by zanemoseley on 7/20/2017, 7:32 pm

That question is pretty much impossible to answer. Its entirely relative to your abilities. If I average 90% for a match I'm thrilled as I'm trying to get my expert classification, if a high master averages 90% they'll want to hang themselves.

My advice is to make goals for yourself to stay interested and track progress. Start with keeping all shots in scoring rings then try to keep them all in the black and so on. As you start shooting matches you can keep up with your scores.

You'll encounter all skill levels at matches. Just this year I've shot alongside Adam Sokolowski and Phil Hemphill, I'm not even close to the same league as them. On the other end of the spektrum you'll find new shooters that look like they shot their target with buckshot. I've yet to encounter anyone even remotely arrogant that acts better than others around them. Go and have fun, ask questions and check out other people's gear.

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by dronning on 7/20/2017, 7:56 pm

Good is relative goals should be, from new shooter to Master:
1) all shots on paper
2) all shots in scoring rings
3) all shots in repair center 
4) all shots in black
5) all shots 9 or better

- Dave
The above progression is all about having a good shot process and following it.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Aprilian on 7/20/2017, 8:59 pm

my scores are low.   BUT

I am getting better with my shot process with the .22 and now can hit black with the .45
My groups are getting smaller and tighter
I am learning 
I am having fun

If you shoot all your practices for score, this can be a very frustrating pastime.   Pick one thing at a time to practice at the range and try to stick with that for a few mags.   I can tell when I'm not staying disciplined with my practice because I start shooting faster and my groups get very scattered.

If you feel your hold is "quivering", concentrate on the smooth operation of the trigger so you don't try to snatch your shots - which I work on every week.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by orpheoet on 7/20/2017, 9:21 pm

dronning wrote:Good is relative goals should be, from new shooter to Master:
1) all shots on paper
2) all shots in scoring rings
3) all shots in repair center 
4) all shots in black
5) all shots 9 or better

- Dave
The above progression is all about having a good shot process and following it.
This is pretty spot on. I remember my first year goal was all shots on paper.I'm working on all shots in the black. It took about 3 years to go from 'shots on paper' to 'shots in the black' as goals.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Jwhelan939 on 7/20/2017, 9:58 pm

dronning wrote:Good is relative goals should be, from new shooter to Master:
1) all shots on paper
2) all shots in scoring rings
3) all shots in repair center 
4) all shots in black
5) all shots 9 or better

- Dave
The above progression is all about having a good shot process and following it.

This is exactly the progression of goals I have made. Next, I want to clean one!


Last edited by Jwhelan939 on 7/20/2017, 10:00 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Screwed up quotes)

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Froneck on 7/20/2017, 10:00 pm

There is no average in shooting. As you progress you change class and compete with those that have progressed about the same. Every time you shoot you have one score to beat and that is your previous score. Shooting is a quest to do better each time you shoot so an average is not something you should be concerned about.

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by mikemyers on 7/20/2017, 10:47 pm

For as long as I've been shooting, the only thing I've been concerned with is group size. I figured if the group is off to the side, or high/low, it's just a matter of adjusting the sights.  I got so involved in "groups" that I got into calculating things using "CEP".  

Then I got to watching the videos by Keith Sanderson, and reading more and more here and on the Bullseye website.  Bullseye is like a whole new language - instead of group size, people are posting numbers (which to be honest, don't yet mean much to me).  Yeah, I've got a lot more to learn.

So, today, for the first time, I shot 10 rounds each at my copy of a NRA target, and searched for how to calculate the "score".  It seemed like a fun thing to learn.

Because I'm so new to this, let's say there is a score of "85".  Or "75".   Or "95".  I don't have any perspective yet to judge if say, an 85 is "beginner", "mediocre", "good", "excellent", or "wow!".  


I totally agree with what Froneck just wrote - it's just like in r/c car racing, no matter how good you get, there is always someone better, and "winning" a race doesn't mean you're great, just that you were better than the other people in that particular race.  So, the only way to "judge" is to compare your own scores over time, which to me, meant watching the group sizes getting smaller and smaller.  Very rewarding.  But, that's a whole different language.  This forum relates to scores, so I decided I would score my practice targets to get a feeling of how I'm improving, or otherwise.  I'm still curious what scores ordinary (not World Champion) shooters get, even if there's no way to answer that.  What's been posted up above by everyone I found interesting and useful.

(And I realize from my own past experience that it was just as thrilling to go from an 8" group to a 6" group, as from 6" to 5", and 5" to 4".   I used to have goals, but every time I achieved any goal, I wanted better, and probably still will until I can't shoot any more.....)
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Boris_La on 7/21/2017, 1:08 am

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/12/28/understanding-the-nra-classification-system/

The classification levels, according to section 19, are: Below 84 percent results in a marksman classification; 84-88.99 percent results in sharpshooter; 89-93.99 percent for expert; 94-96.99 percent for master; and 97 percent or above for high master.

https://mqp.nra.org/media/4198/conventional-bullseye.pdf

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by orpheoet on 7/21/2017, 3:30 am

Boris_La wrote:https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/12/28/understanding-the-nra-classification-system/

The classification levels, according to section 19, are: Below 84 percent results in a marksman classification; 84-88.99 percent results in sharpshooter; 89-93.99 percent for expert; 94-96.99 percent for master; and 97 percent or above for high master.

https://mqp.nra.org/media/4198/conventional-bullseye.pdf
I believe it's 95% for Master in pistol
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Wile E Coyote on 7/21/2017, 5:42 am

NRA Pistol Book (March 2016):

High Master ........................................................97.00 and above
Master ....................................................................95.00 to 96.99
Expert .....................................................................90.00 to 94.99
Sharpshooter ..........................................................85.00 to 89.99
Marksman .................................................................Below 85.00


Also check out njpistol.com for new shooters!

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Froneck on 7/21/2017, 6:15 am

I don't know where that site got the numbers from but Wiley is correct and listed in the NRA rule book below on page 49
97%          +               High Master
95%  to  96.99%         Master
90%  to  94.99%         Expert
85%  to  89.99%         Sharpshooter
anything below 85%    Marksman

http://compete.nra.org/documents/pdf/compete/RuleBooks/Pistol/pistol-book.pdf

I too am interested in the group, often at our range we go inside to the indoor range because of weather conditions outside during the warm months that is 50' a change from the outdoor 25 and 50 yard range. I don't adjust my sights as I'm more interested in group size. But in competition a great group in the wrong spot will not score well and it's the score that determines classification. However in practice I avoid changing my sights if I shot a good group in the wrong place until I determine why it did. A small change don't concern me but a large change has me looking for the cause.
 If you are looking for a general average then Expert should be simply because in most competitions the Expert class has the most competitors.

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by CR10X on 7/21/2017, 6:20 am

To get a true picture of the scores, you need to shoot a 10 shot slow fire string, 2 Five shot Timed Fire Strings in 20 seconds and 2 Five shot strings in 10 seconds on the appropriate targets and distance and calculated your scores.  Then divide by 300 potential points and then compare that percentage to those shown for the Classifications in the NRA Rule book (shown above). 

To answer your original question, shooters at our 2700 match have scores that range from 2650 to 2600 for the High Masters to around 1600 or less for the new shooters (sometimes much less).  Remember this is for 3 full 900 Aggregates (.22, CF, .45) including the Slow Fire Match, National Match Course, Timed Fire Match and Rapid Fire Match.  

"Average" shooters are a myth, but eventually most shooters get to Sharpshooter or Expert.  As for beginner scores, well my best story is a gentleman that showed up with a Glock 19 and wanted to shoot bullseye.  After suggesting he actually watch a match first, or borrow the equipment so he could shoot the .22 match, he declined and just wanted to shoot his Glock.  So I put him on the CF relay and and he shoot the entire 90 shot Aggregate.  
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He scored a 5 for the match.  The customer may not always be right, but the customer will always be served to be best of our ability. 

Anyway, the best way to learn how to shoot a match is to go see one, then shoot some, then run some, then teach some. 

All the best and good luck.

CR

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by davekp on 7/21/2017, 6:24 am

I think the largest class at Camp Perry is expert.
A few years ago, I attended a seminar conducted by the USMC team. I asked what was their goal for their shooters and was told 92 for slow fire, 99 for timed, and 98 for rapid.
If you can do this, you'll break 2600!

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2017, 6:45 am

davekp wrote:I think the largest class at Camp Perry is expert.
A few years ago, I attended a seminar conducted by the USMC team. I asked what was their goal for their shooters and was told 92 for slow fire, 99 for timed, and 98 for rapid.
If you can do this, you'll break 2600!
I probably am missing something, as I know so little about scoring, but if these numbers indicate the scoring of a target (which I doubt), why would anyone expect to do "better" when firing more quickly?  I guess I need to read some of the links posted above, about what these numbers represent.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2017, 6:52 am

Thanks for posting the links up above.  

While reading through them, I found "It begins with the NRA-sanctioned tournament sponsor."   So, to get into the system, one first needs to find an NRA-sanctioned tournament, compete, and this will lead to getting a classification card?  Does one need to shoot multiple caliber guns, or can a single gun be used?  ...lots more reading to do.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by carykiteboarder on 7/21/2017, 7:38 am

Ok, basics:

A full bullseye tournament is actually three 90 shot matches.  Each 90 shot match is fired with a caliber restriction:
1st 90 shots are with .22LR
2nd 90 shots are with "Center Fire".  Any caliber .32 to .45 is allowed
3rd 90 shots are .45.

Each of those 90 shots are fired with one of three time constraints:
Slow Fire: 10 shots in 10 minutes.  These targets are at 50yds.
Timed Fire: Strings of 5 shots in 20 seconds.  These targets are at 25yds. Targets are always scored after 10 shots so you shoot two strings per target.
Rapid Fire: Strings of 5 shots in 10 seconds.  These targets are at 25yds.  Again, two strings per target.

There are variations.  For example, shooting ".22LR-Only" has it's own classification. (i.e. one gun)

So, to answer your question about why better scores are at faster times... The scoring rings are the same size at 50 and 25 yards.  That makes 50yds a lot harder.

As for "average", think of Marksman (scores < 85) as "beginner"; Sharpshooter (scores < 90) as "intermediate"; Expert (scores < 95) as "expert" and Master/High Master as elite shooters.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Froneck on 7/21/2017, 7:55 am

Yes those numbers do indicate a target score. 10 shots are shot on each target, time and rapid fire are shot in 2 strings of five then scored, slow fire all 10 shots are fired. Perfect score is 100.
You need only fire one match and must compete in the highest level unless there is a number of unclassified shooters. Your score will be your temporary classification. After 360 shots are fired in competition a classification card will be issued. You can get a .22 classification. If you check the link I posted it is the NRA Rule book and has all the information you will need about a match.

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by BE Mike on 7/21/2017, 8:02 am

Going back more years than I'd like to remember, I could only afford a .22 pistol. I have no natural ability when it comes to shooting. I did read a lot in Gil Hebard's "Pistol Shooters' Treasury" and that helped me get an idea of what I was supposed to do. I was shooting slow fire scores, in practice, at 50 yards that were in the low to mid 70's before I shot my first outdoor match. I frankly didn't have a good way to train for sustained fire. The first few matches I shot, I remember shooting some slow fire targets with scores in the 50's. As I continued to read, train and shoot matches, my scores improved pretty quickly. I was a Sharpshooter with the .22 when I got a Series 70 Colt Gold Cup and started shooting it in matches. My overall scores plummeted for a time. I finally got to the point where I figured my shots weren't on call and a top shooter advised me to get a "match pistol". That made a big difference. I think it is not a good idea to focus on scores (although it is a good idea to have a shooter's diary of all practice and match shots fired). It is more important to focus on the fundamentals of marksmanship. Having a written shot plan tailored specifically for you helps you focus on the process (fundamentals) and not the end result (scores). Getting a good coach can really accelerate your development, but I know that it is hard to find a good coach, as a civilian. Setting reasonable goals is good too. I only achieved NRA Outdoor Master and won my Distinguished Pistol Shot badge, so measuring my skill, I'd just say that, in my day, I was just ok.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by 243winxb on 7/21/2017, 9:57 am

Slow fire targets have smaller scoring rings then timed and rapid fire. (Edit - 50 feet and 25 yards.)

Test your self by shooting  10 slow, 10 timed, 10 rapid. 30 shots total.

Average the results and  see  where that puts you in the above listed classifications.


Last edited by 243winxb on 7/21/2017, 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Froneck on 7/21/2017, 10:06 am

50 yard Slow fire targets don't have smaller rings, they all are the same size as the 25 yard targets only difference is the 8 ring is black. However slow fire targets reduced for 25 yard shooting do have reduced ring diameters as well as the slow fire 50 foot target has smaller rings than the 50 foot time and rapid targets.

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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/21/2017, 10:27 am

Froneck wrote:50 yard Slow fire targets don't have smaller rings, they all are the same size as the 25 yard targets only difference is the 8 ring is black. However slow fire targets reduced for 25 yard shooting do have reduced ring diameters as well as the slow fire 50 foot target has smaller rings than the 50 foot time and rapid targets.
correct sir
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by mikemyers on 7/21/2017, 2:03 pm

Thanks for posting all the above, especially the basic information.  That did answer my question, different distances.  I didn't realize there were different targets.  How much of the shooting is done with the NRA B-2 target?

I will stop asking questions.  You guys are way, way over my head.  I'll do the best I can with what I have now, and at the club I belong to, Hollywood Rifle and Pistol Club (http://www.hrpclub.info/index.html).  That's my photo on the home page.  I understand far more about photography than I will ever understand about bullseye competition, but my goal is to get "reasonably good" at bullseye shooting.  I will read the rest of the information on the NRA page.

It seems like most of you guys are "Expert", "Master", and "High Master".  From the ratings listed in the user information, most people here are in those categories.  I'm sure if I get classified, it would be Marksman.  I keep improving, but I've got a long ways to go.
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

Post by Aprilian on 7/21/2017, 2:23 pm

mikemyers wrote:

I will stop asking questions.  You guys are way, way over my head.  
Don't stop asking.  Here is the way I learned some very good and also some basic info before I shot my first 900.   Bullseye Encyclopedia
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Re: What is a reasonable score?

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