Gallery Shooting Holds??

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Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/27/2017, 1:21 pm

I’m very new to shooting indoor 50 foot gallery style rim fire matches.  I’ve only shot five and cannot break 200.  With an air pistol at 10 meters or my free pistol at 50 YDS. I’ll shoot in the mid 500’s without a lot of thought; this .22 semi is eating me alive I’m afraid.

I’m shooting irons and using the same sub six o’clock hold I use in the other disciplines, should I be using a center hold with the gallery course of fire?     As it is now the slow fire scores are my saviors as I treat that like a quicker AP match; but my rapid and timed shots are total disasters, I’ve even missed the paper with some shots.     Honestly I’d be better shooting slow, scoring 9’s and 10’s and not getting enough shots off, than what I’m doing now.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/27/2017, 1:38 pm

Try a thin line of white. How are your normal timed and rapids?
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/27/2017, 1:58 pm

I think what I do is shoot the first round just like a slow fire one with my normal follow through hold, then it dawns on me I cannot do that and rush the rest so I might be pulling shots because I don’t follow through at all after that first one.  It’s not uncommon for me to have two dead center hits in rapid and timed and the rest out in the 5-6-7 rings; I’m thinking the first two rounds of each series are the 10’s.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jack H on 7/27/2017, 2:11 pm

Do I understand that in gallery, slowfire is ok, but sustained stinks?  How ok is SF? 

Are you really keeping your eye on the sight? And is your grip firm enough to control the recoil in a good followthrough and recovery back to alignment. 

Shoot 2 shot sustained onto blank target backs. Then move to 3 shots.  etc.  Also be ready on the trigger somewhere during recovery.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/27/2017, 2:20 pm

Jon Math wrote:I think what I do is shoot the first round just like a slow fire one with my normal follow through hold, then it dawns on me I cannot do that and rush the rest so I might be pulling shots because I don’t follow through at all after that first one.  It’s not uncommon for me to have two dead center hits in rapid and timed and the rest out in the 5-6-7 rings; I’m thinking the first two rounds of each series are the 10’s.
Sounds like you need to do many many rapid fire drills
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/27/2017, 2:21 pm

I usually drop five to ten points in SF.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/27/2017, 2:23 pm

Chris Miceli wrote:
Jon Math wrote:I think what I do is shoot the first round just like a slow fire one with my normal follow through hold, then it dawns on me I cannot do that and rush the rest so I might be pulling shots because I don’t follow through at all after that first one.  It’s not uncommon for me to have two dead center hits in rapid and timed and the rest out in the 5-6-7 rings; I’m thinking the first two rounds of each series are the 10’s.
Sounds like you need to do many many rapid fire drills

I'm sure of it!
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by AllAces on 7/27/2017, 2:26 pm

A few years back I was shooting both the National Match Course (rim and center fire) at 25 yards and an indoor 10 meter air pistol, all with iron sights.  I used the six o'clock hold with no white showing.  For rim and center fire I found dry fire practice to be the most help.  For air pistol, perhaps because the trigger was significantly lighter, I found practicing my breathing control and follow through to be more help than sight control.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by CR10X on 7/28/2017, 5:25 am

Yep, transitioning to time fire and rapid fire; or as we like to say - "sustained fire" is very informative.  That's right, informative. 

It really shows the shooter exactly how much needs to be improved in terms of grip, trigger control and mental commitment that is needed to further improvement in the overall shooting process.

We can get by with "light or slightly inconsistent grip, hold a long time time or more than needed, abort the shot, etc. etc. for slow fire with an air pistol or even a .22.  But sustained fire, like shooting larger calibers like the .45; will generally require us to develop firmer and more consistent grip pressure, continuous and progressive trigger operating and mental preparation to see and act before the "most acceptable" sight picture, while having perfect sight alignment, in order to complete the shot during the optimum time during the wobble.

Remember that sustained fire targets or distance (depending on the match) is actually four times easier to score a 10 on than a slow fire target (due to scaling or distance).  In essence, sustained fire is easier physically if the gun alignment remains consistent and the trigger operation does not influence the sight alignment (no flinching or jerking the trigger).  And the gun alignment is easier to maintain if we have a good firm and consistent grip.

However sustained fire is, well can be, a little harder mentally in that there is that clock ticking in the background. If there is not consistent and committed trigger operation (along with previously mentioned grip pressure), the shot process tends to fall apart.  So, sustained fire requires focus on the grip and trigger and basically a little less focus on "perfect" sight picture, but a high level of focus on "acceptable" sight alignment.   
(Be sure to study and understand the different between sight picture and sight alignment.  And buy a grip exerciser or keep a ball of wax handy and use it every chance you get.)

Just some thoughts from someone that has to work very hard at the short line.

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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 6:51 am

Thank you, very much! That is excellent advice, and could well be a huge part of my problem.  I have arms like Popeye, and can crush walnuts in my hand, but I do not hold a rim fire or AP very tightly at all, the free pistol I hardly hold at all, the grip fits my paw like a wooden glove and I just hold it up with only enough pressure to align the sights and touch it off.  I do crank down on my center fire pistol and those scores are always much better than my rim fire.  I have also been trying for the perfect sight picture, which I why I was asking about the hold.  I spend a lot of seconds trying to get the gap at six o’clock perfectly consistent and was wondering if that was a mistake that a center hold would eliminate.  That is what comes of trying to teach yourself something from books and observations.

Thanks to everyone for the excellent suggestions, knowledge and advice. 
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by BE Mike on 7/28/2017, 7:53 am

Everybody has given you good advice. I'll add that you should also strive to get the first shot off and it should be a "ten" within a second of the targets turning. Develop a cadence. You can burn into your brain how long ten seconds is by looking at a stop watch and mentally going through the string. Like Ed Hall reminded me, you need to start trigger pressure before your sights alignment. It is hard to do this because the brain is telling you to do the opposite. You'd be surprised how "bad" you sight alignment looks and still is enough for a ten on the short line. You are just trying to be to precise on the short line. "Lighten up!" I know...It is easier said than done. Once you start breaking shots on the short line without perfect sight alignment and they turn out to be good shots, your brain will accept that new paradigm.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 9:04 am

I’ve been shooting a pistol now for seven months, I have shot either the AP, FP or RF, or dry fired every day for seven months.  I’ve tried shooting with stopwatches and even a metronome to develop a rhythm for time management w/o a lot of success.  I have been an elite athlete in multiple sports and made a living in sports and education but I am not developing as quickly as I feel I should be and frankly have driven the pistol to the gun shop more than once with the intensions of selling it and going back to the target riflesports. 
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by TomH_pa on 7/28/2017, 9:17 am

frankly have driven the pistol to the gun shop more than once with the intensions of selling it and going back to the target riflesports. 
And I thought I was the only one......

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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 9:29 am

LOL I figured I was not alone.  Even off a solid rest it does not shoot very well, but I will not use that as an excuse for my crap performance and I will master this pistol, just because I refuse to be beaten by a machine…then I will sell it and move to another facet of shooting sports.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by robert84010 on 7/28/2017, 9:47 am

I think the advice given is exceptional. Trying to shoot all tens in rapid but getting five and sixes is telling you that you are jerking the trigger because you are letting the time limit get in your head. You know what a ten looks like but, in my opinion, you are trying to only settle for tens and then you jerk the trigger. Consider all shots in the black as a first goal, start with 3 shots and increase once you meet the goal.
You will indeed see that there can be a bit of slop in the sight picture and you will still shoot in the 10 ring at 25 yards, as long as trigger control is there. Excepting that is part of achieving it.

"trigger control is your life" is how the former national coach puts it at his clinic.

The sub six allows that front sight to stick out better than a center hold, especially indoors. I would not recommend going to center hold. The sub six hold really reinforces that area aiming concept since you are not focusing on holding at a defined point but you can still shoot X's with a sub six hold.


Last edited by robert84010 on 7/28/2017, 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/28/2017, 10:08 am

Yeah BE Mike wrote:Everybody has given you good advice. I'll add that you should also strive to get the first shot off and it should be a "ten" within a second of the targets turning. Develop a cadence. You can burn into your brain how long ten seconds is by looking at a stop watch and mentally going through the string. Like Ed Hall reminded me, you need to start trigger pressure before your sights alignment. It is hard to do this because the brain is telling you to do the opposite. You'd be surprised how "bad" you sight alignment looks and still is enough for a ten on the short line. You are just trying to be to precise on the short line. "Lighten up!" I know...It is easier said than done. Once you start breaking shots on the short line without perfect sight alignment and they turn out to be good shots, your brain will accept that new paradigm.
I don't think a cadence is what you want. Make the first one a X within the first second of the faced target, and the rest should just flow as you get the trigger pressure going as your coming back into the aiming area.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 10:12 am

I have shot other pistol sports with very good scores but the time has always added up not run down, and there accurate shooting could make up for slow shooting (to some extent).  The tight grip I’d bet accounts for a largest part of my problem.  I can start and stop my trigger pull pretty effectively, maybe too effectively , as I do want that perfect sight picture and have spent way to many seconds waiting for it to develop. 

I plan to tighten my grip and start shooting against the clock at a blank target to see if I’m getting a nice roundish and tight group.  If I do I know I can move that group to the center of the page.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/28/2017, 10:21 am

Jon Math wrote:I can start and stop my trigger pull pretty effectively, maybe too effectively , as I do want that perfect sight picture and have spent way to many seconds waiting for it to develop. 

That's biggest part of not shooting good sustained fire. You cannot dork around with trigger squeeze. This leads to forced jerked shots. If you're shoiting 550's free pistol you obviously have an understanding of hold and trigger squeeze. Many int'l shooters suck at BE because of recoil and heavier trigger pull weights. 
You have to keep the trigger moving and ACCEPT hold/sight alignment. Trigger is moving 98% of the time during a TF or RF string: Master level shooter. You are picking and choosing your shots. Go back and read fundamentals of trigger squeeze. Your not spplying them. Your groups will be groups when you go back to the basics. Also a fine line between waiting for shot to break and forcing shot off. Dry firing will help you learn your trigger. You should know when it's about to go bang. Live fire reinforces it. 
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by robert84010 on 7/28/2017, 11:37 am

Jon Eulette wrote:
.....
You have to keep the trigger moving and ACCEPT hold/sight alignment. Trigger is moving 98% of the time during a TF or RF string: Master level shooter. You are picking and choosing your shots. Go back and read fundamentals of trigger squeeze........
And there it is...AGAIN...

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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Froneck on 7/28/2017, 11:57 am

Listen to those others about keeping the trigger moving! When I first started shooting I took advise of some locals, also read about pulling the trigger while in the black and hesitate when off the black. I went to NRA convention and signed up for Pistol Clinic. All the the legends were there, Blankenship, Reeves, Higginson just to name a few. They all said Keep the trigger moving! Went there as a Marksman, year later I was a Master!

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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 12:45 pm

I have heard that expression but never really understood what it means.  My pistols have two stage triggers, the first stage will move the trigger with a bit of weight on it but it comes to a very firm stop at the second stage and it’s an icicle break from there.  I can put weight on it but any travel it has is just to the over travel stop the sear has released at that point.  Is this the wrong kind of trigger for Bullseye shooting?
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Chris Miceli on 7/28/2017, 12:59 pm

Jon Math wrote:I have heard that expression but never really understood what it means.  My pistols have two stage triggers, the first stage will move the trigger with a bit of weight on it but it comes to a very firm stop at the second stage and it’s an icicle break from there.  I can put weight on it but any travel it has is just to the over travel stop the sear has released at that point.  Is this the wrong kind of trigger for Bullseye shooting?
It's what ever works best for you. I adjust out all the overtravel.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Math on 7/28/2017, 1:12 pm

Would doing that give you movement in the second stage?  I guess I don’t follow the concept of keep the trigger moving.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/28/2017, 1:39 pm

Continuous squeeze bang reset continuous squeeze bang reset. You do this 5 times for a sustained fire string. It doesn't matter if you're shooting a single stage Trigger or a two-stage trigger it's the same. Using a two-stage trigger when your resetting you do not reset the first stage. You only let off trigger enough to reset the second stage. You should have somebody watch you shoot to see if you're completely letting off the trigger when you resetting. That's a common mistake I see Shooters make. You never let your finger to lose contact with the trigger when you're shooting. Two stage triggers are the best in my opinion. Obviously the 1911 doesn't have a two-stage trigger. But you can still shoot it well in spite of that.
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

Post by Jon Eulette on 7/28/2017, 1:43 pm

As far as overtravel goes everybody has their own idea of what works for them. I used to have very limited over travel with my pistols. I now have lots of over travel with my pistols. I find that for me I have less interference with sight alignment having more overtravel. I squeeze the trigger very aggressively so I don't want the interference of the stop. This is mostly with the 1911 for 45 or Hardball because of the heavier trigger weight
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Re: Gallery Shooting Holds??

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